dagabu Posted July 26, 2012 Posted July 26, 2012 Use wheat starch instead, boil it 10:1 water to starch, let cool and use as is or dilute slightly. The gluten in raw flour5 is 1/4 the strength of the boiled item. It also shrinks when drying, don't leave the rammer in the tube when drying. -dag
Col Posted July 26, 2012 Posted July 26, 2012 Cheers Dag, i`ll ask the missus to keep an eye open for some wheat starch, i guess a chinese supermarket would be the best bet? The rod is just an odd piece of 3/4" T6 ally, i`ll leave in it just to see how hard it is to get out I came across this page while looking for wheat paste recipes that reckons the peel strength of wheat paste is stronger than full strength wood glue. My linkIf that info is accurate, it should handle at least 5700psi. I`ll be surprised if it does but live in hope cos flour is a lot cheaper than pva.
dagabu Posted July 26, 2012 Posted July 26, 2012 Cheers Dag, i`ll ask the missus to keep an eye open for some wheat starch, i guess a chinese supermarket would be the best bet? It's used in pancakes, noodles and pastas plus lots of white bread. It should be available at any good whole foods store and baking goods store. -dag
btdk34 Posted July 27, 2012 Author Posted July 27, 2012 Huh, that sounds interesting! I'll have to keep an eye out for that. I read somewhere online that this stuff only lasts for a week before it goes bad... is this true?
dagabu Posted July 27, 2012 Posted July 27, 2012 If left at room temp, it can go bad overnight. If refrigerated, expect it to last about as long as milk. Only make what you need, it does not store well without a preservative. -dag
Col Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 Quick update, The wheat paste tube seems pretty dry and it cuts about the same as a pva glued tube... like sawing a piece of hardwood. It weighs 3g more than a pva glued tube so i`m not sure if its completely dry or if the wheatpaste adds more weight than pva.Getting the former out of the tube involved mole grips and a piece of leather to turn the former and break the glue seal. It came out easy enough after that I`ll give it another day to make sure its 100% dry before i destroy it with the press
val77 Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 hey guyswhen I ride a tube with paper (I roll it around a wooden stick) and although the wooden stick is stuck in the tube .... ..you know why it is in? paper too tightly?if you have a tutorial to fully roll tubes? for me when I roll them they are never perfectly straight because the paper is not well in the axis of the tube ... thanks for your response
Col Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 (edited) Hey Dag, I could but i`d never get rich with my productivity val, dont put any glue on the first turn that ends up against the former, its about 60mm for a 3/4" tube. As you roll the 1st turn of paper over the former you apply a 1/2" band of glue to the leading edge (on top) so it forms a glue to glue seal. Draw some guide lines on your rolling board, it`ll help to keep things straight. I`d recommend using a polished aluminium or stainless steel former. so the glue can`t stick to it. Edited July 29, 2012 by Col
taiwanluthiers Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 One word of caution... do NOT roll tubes with washable glue!!! I rolled a few because I was given some by a friend, and the resultant tube was so weak I could squeeze it with finger pressure (the glue was very fragile like glass) Normally you have to squeeze very very hard to deform it.
Col Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) Pva definitely has the edge The failure point of the wheat paste tube was 3900psi (unsupported). The supported test (9,500psi) wasnt as good either, the end of the tube had 3 well defined rings where the wall had delaminated and shifted under pressure. Overall, the wheat paste was a fair bit behind the pva but still servicable for less energetic applications. I tested a commercial spiral wound 3/4" tube (4.5mm wall) which looked like it was made from some kind of compressed grey fluff, and that didnt even make it to 2500psi. Edited July 30, 2012 by Col
val77 Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 tonight I rolled my first perfect tube! I used double-gluing technique and it work perfectly!Do you have photos attached below! ID = 12mmhttp://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/16/97/86/45/imag0010.jpg http://i47.servimg.com/u/f47/16/97/86/45/imag0011.jpg What do you think? Personally, this is the first time I managed a tube
btdk34 Posted August 3, 2012 Author Posted August 3, 2012 Nice job, Val77! After my MANY struggles with rolling tubes over the past weeks, I found a method that works, so I thought I'd quick share. I'm rolling 3/8" ID 9/16" OD x 3" long tubes, and I only roll a single tube at a time using a 4" x 20" piece of 60# virgin kraft. I only single coat about 3-4" of the paper at a time to keep it from bubbling before I can roll it, which seems to work quite well. The only problem I have is sometimes the tube does not want to roll straight. A quick question for you veteran rocket makers, are there standard tube OD's for 1 oz, 2 oz, and 4 oz tubes?
Col Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 I use 2.5mm wall for 4oz, but only because its provides a perfect fit for my support tube. As long as it can take the pressure you can use any wall thickness.
dagabu Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Nice job, Val77! After my MANY struggles with rolling tubes over the past weeks, I found a method that works, so I thought I'd quick share. I'm rolling 3/8" ID 9/16" OD x 3" long tubes, and I only roll a single tube at a time using a 4" x 20" piece of 60# virgin kraft. I only single coat about 3-4" of the paper at a time to keep it from bubbling before I can roll it, which seems to work quite well. The only problem I have is sometimes the tube does not want to roll straight. A quick question for you veteran rocket makers, are there standard tube OD's for 1 oz, 2 oz, and 4 oz tubes? I am afraid that there are no standards for the OD of the tubes, only the ID. For example, I have 1 pound heavy wall and regular wall NEPT tubes that are both considered to be the standard in their field but are both a lot smaller OD then chipboard tubes. -dag Edited August 3, 2012 by dagabu
val77 Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) hey dagfor 12mm id tubes I have a 3mm wall which gives an external diameter of 18mm Edited August 3, 2012 by val77
dagabu Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 hey dagfor 12mm id tubes I have a 3mm wall which gives an external diameter of 18mm That sounds about right for kraft paper tubes. -dag
Col Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 I finally got around to building a tube rolling machine so my hand roilling days are over and my productivity is up
dan999ification Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 nice work col, looks less complicated than the one ive been dreaming up, still cant get round a few things, ive got so many questions, can we have a video to save a few? Dan.
Col Posted August 29, 2012 Posted August 29, 2012 This one is very basic, just to test the design. Its manually operated and rolls 1/2"-7/8" id tubes upto 12" long. I`ve made a start on a more complex semi auto version (1/2HP motor powered) that will roll 1/2" to 2" id tubes upto 30" long in less than 30 seconds.
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