taiwanluthiers Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 I don't think I can get Barium Chlorate, so all I got was Barium Chloride to make green because the Barium nitrate they have are really expensive. I experimented with it by adding it to flash type composition. For a while I thought the Barium Chloride was acting like a fire suppressant because the composition would not ignite. So I tried the same thing without the Barium Chloride and same thing. Finally modified the formula a bit (instead of using 2 potassium perchlorate, 1 235 mesh aluminum, I just went 1:1 on both of them) and it worked. So tried it again with Barium chloride and still white flame. Got frustrated and looked for "green fire" composition and found this: From http://www.pyrocreations.com/colored_fire_compositions__flares_and_torches Barium Nitrate 3Potassium Chlorate 8Sulfur 3 Of course I am not stupid enough to mix chlorate and sulfur together by the way.. So I substituted Barium Nitrate with Barium Chloride, Potassium Chlorate with Potassium Perchlorate and made about a gram of the mix to test, and lit it, and lo and behold the fire was green! I only thought to get Barium Chloride (rather than Carbonate) just because I thought BaCl acts as its own chlorine donor... would it have been better to get Barium Carbonate instead (it was slightly cheaper)?
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Barium carbonate would have been better, yes.
taiwanluthiers Posted June 13, 2012 Author Posted June 13, 2012 Crap... what should I do with the Barium Chloride? Throw it away and get Carbonate? Why isn't Barium Chloride good? I see Copper Chlorides used in blue composition and Copper Chloride is more hygroscopic (in fact the bottle is actually dripping wet most the time)
FlaMtnBkr Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Barium chlorate and nitrate are both oxidizers and by removing them you will be changing the formula significantly. I don't remember ever seeing any formulas with barium chloride so I'm not sure how useful it will be. In a flame barium chloride is the color emitter but I don't think you can just add it and get real good green color though with the barium in there I'm sure you can manage some green. Green is actually fairly hard to get a really good color so it is probably best to stick with known formulas. Even then it can be hard to get a deep green. Another thing to keep in mind is that colors usually look quite a bit different up close than far away in a firework. If you just want to experiment and make a green flame then boric acid in methanol alcohol and put in an alcohol burner makes a really vivid and pretty green flame. Charcoal, glitter, and red stars are probably the easiest to get working good. I'm also surprised you got your flash type mix to burn to be honest. 235 mesh aluminum is fairly coarse and can be hard to get to burn when made into flash, especially if it is not a flake aluminum.Plus that much aluminum burns super hot and will probably always wash out any color to white. I think if you stick with known formulas while starting out you will probably be more happy with the results than making substitutions. There are formula databases available as well as old threads here that discuss formulas and the results people have had with them. Plus you can always ask questions if you're not sure of something. Also, it might be more productive to pick something you want to make so you have something to work towards. I started off with rockets and smaller ones aren't that hard to make and they are really fun and exciting to get in the air. Plus the chemicals for black powder are cheap and you can roll your own tubes and make your own tooling with fairly simple tools if you start small. I started with 3/8" rockets made on tooling made from wood dowels and a small steel rod for a spindle. After the first one took off and went almost out of sight, I was banging out rockets left and right for a long time before I wanted to move on to something else. And once you get a cored rocket down then you can move on to stinger missles and helicopters which are pretty similar to make but a different effect. Just a suggestion to pick something to make so you have something to work towards. Good luck and stay safe. 1
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Copper compounds catalyst the decomposition of chlorates and perchlorates, hence the better colour, despite hygroscopicity. 1
taiwanluthiers Posted June 13, 2012 Author Posted June 13, 2012 I guess I was just experimenting without any real goal in mind... had hoped to make some decent stars to load into roman candles or whatnot but I really need to learn how to walk before I can run...
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 Aw, don't feel sad. Everyone has to start somewhere.
Peret Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 As a general principle, for something to play a part in a colored flame reaction, it has to be gaseous. You could get a nice green starting with solid barium chloride if you could somehow create a flame hot enough to vaporize it; but my friends at Wikipedia tell me it vaporizes at 2,840 degrees F, which is way hotter than you can achieve with a pyrotechnic mixture. The usual way green is produced is to create barium chloride as an incandescent gas from two other hot gaseous ingredients, typically barium oxide and hydrogen chloride, that form at a lower temperature as reaction products in the flame. 1
Mumbles Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 It may also be noted that the barium chloride you can buy and handle, BaCl2, is not the same barium chloride that is active in flames. The colorant is BaCl, ostensibly Barium +1 as written, but I don't know of any data that absolutely confirms it. It's just what is written in all the books. The same is true of strontium and copper. While copper (I) chloride exists at ambient conditions, it is a dimer in the solid state. It's also not entirely stable in ambient conditions. The various chlorides can be used to make some interesting experiments and nice colors, however they are not very practical. They nearly all are too hygroscopic to really be useful. They do find use in ghost flames however where the salt is dissolved in alcohol for colored flames, lamps, and fireballs. 1
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Like I always say: what a pity that barium chlorate is the only metal chlorate useful for colour in pyrotechnics. Strontium chlorate being non-hygroscopic and copper chlorate being more stable would make pyrotechnics so much easier.
taiwanluthiers Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 I guess I will just have to throw the BaCl2 into a chlorate cell or something to turn it into barium chlorate... What if I just mix it with Potassium Chlorate, will it turn into Barium Chlorate? I guess I'll try finding barium nitrate, its just that they're so expensive (20 dollars a pound) because they're reagent grade.
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 No, it won't turn into barium chlorate that easily. You have to use potassium chlorate or potassium perchlorate together with barium nitrate or barium carbonate in a composition to make gaseous barium chloride, which is what makes green. It's quite an irony that solid barium chloride won't turn gaseous by any "normal" pyrotechnical means.
taiwanluthiers Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 So what you're saying is that BaCl2 is about as useless as salt in pyrotechnics, except that its a really poisonous salt..?
Potassiumchlorate Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) So what you're saying is that BaCl2 is about as useless as salt in pyrotechnics, except that its a really poisonous salt..? You might try the methods described here: Barium chlorate Edited June 14, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate
lja Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Why not react the barium chloride with some potassium nitrate to get barium nitrate? Barium nitrates solubility is pretty low, it should precipitate right out of solution and the potassium chloride will stay dissolved.
californiapyro Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 barium nitrate certainly wouldn't precipitate out of solution, it's very soluble.
taiwanluthiers Posted June 14, 2012 Author Posted June 14, 2012 You might try the methods described here: Barium chlorate Or I'll make Barium Carbonate and leave it at that... at least I have a crapload of Sodium Carbonate from tie dying...
Mumbles Posted June 14, 2012 Posted June 14, 2012 Cali, at cold temperatures, it has a solubility of 5g/100mL. That is by far the lowest solubility of the things in solution, not not exactly what I would call appreciably soluble. For what it's worth, you can definitely use barium chloride as a green colorant. It's not difficult by any means. Dissolving it in alcohol and burning the solution proves that, though you get sort of a lime green. It's just that it's hygroscopic enough to not be all that practical. Not being practical doesn't stop a lot of people though. If you dried the chloride first, and bound it with a non-aqueous binder it should be usable for a few weeks. 1
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