Dragon eggs

[Anarchy08]

All formulas were bound with NC made from Pingpong balls, laquor is very thick. All formulas were treated the same, screened oxides and metal was diapered in. mix was then dampened with a spray of acetone to allow the NC to mix through. All formulas were then both pressed through a garlic press and sliced off in 2mm cubes(eggs) and rolled 2/3mm thick using popsticks as a depth gauge and sliced 5mm squared using a herb chopper.

these tests were done Un-primed using a blowtorch.

Bismuth subcarbonate 37.5

CuO black 37.5

MgAl -325 25

The subcarb seems to be one of the best effects that I have trialed; each individual egg gave multiple crackles as they flew around. The 5mm cut worked just as well only the star divided and kept dividing giving a rush of cracks.

Bismuth Trioxide 34

CuO black 39

MgAl -325 20

KClO4 5

Al Dark flake 2

Trioxide performed well, the small eggs gave small delay before reporting in single snap per egg. The 5mm cut gave multiple large cracks and did not report as one star.

Antinomy trioxide 37.5

CuO black 37.5

MgAl -325 25

The Antinomy gave an interesting result different from dragon eggs, these have a loud sizzling effect with the same noise as the subcarb, but rapidly. The eggs seem to strobe on/off fast and found this star the best out of the -325 experiments.

Bismuth subcarbonate 37.5

CuO black 37.5

MgAl-100/200 (1:1) 25

Changing the MgAl particle size has now changed the effect, these became a 3 sec delay with the loudest single crack of all the experiments, highly recommend these.

Bismuth Trioxide 34

CuO Red 39

MgAl -100/200 (1:1) 20

KClO4 5

Al Dark flake 2

These small grains barely worked with a sputter, complete failure. The 5mm cut stars seemed to improve but still dismal for the effect.

Antinomy trioxide 37.5

CuO black 37.5

MgAl -100/200 (1:1) 25

As seen before with the Antinomy a strobe crackle was the result with the changed MgAl particle size these seemed to strobe slower a more pleasing effect then the -325.Small eggs swim around, 5mm cut stars jet around while strobing .

Antinomy trioxide 34

CuO Red 39

MgAl -100/20020

KClO4 5

Al Dark flake 2

The Addition of the perc/Al did not seem to help the effect as seen with the Bismuth, The Antinomy turned into a sizzling star no crackle effect rapid strobing effect, far from a dragon egg.

Depending on the effect you are after, single cracks as cores for stars use Bismuth subcarb (-100/200) and -325 / bismuth oxide with -325 depending on delay. for a rush effect for matrix stars I recommend using the Antinomy and Bismuth trioxide using -325.one thing that I did not get a chance to try was using

Antinomy trioxide 37.5

CuO black 37.5

MgAl -325/ MgAl -100/200 25

As I have run out of Oxides and MgAl IF anyone can tests these and report back id love to hear the results

Cheers Anarchy08

Edited June 10, 2012 by Anarchy08

[AdmiralDonSnider]

Interesting tests. I did not know that antimony oxide does succeed as well.

 

Of the three comps I tested so far (they are all given to the public in Lancaster FPP) the bismuth variety gave the best results, followed by plain lead and lead-copper. The three formulas as well as pics of the eggs are seen here: http://www.pyroguide...ing_Micro-stars

 

The same publication also has some interesting lines on the topic:

 

Readers who wish to know more about the background to these

mixtures should refer to Pyrotechnica (XIII, XIV, XV). Dr Shimizu's

work (XIII) establishes that any of the three lead oxides can be used

along with atomized aluminium of 60-100 mesh and magnalium of

something between 60 and 200 mesh. An optimum magnalium alloy

could be Mg/Al 31/69 if it were commercially available. (p.208f)

 

Concerning particle size I have so far only tested -200 mesh and 80-120 mesh 50:50 MgAl. It seems that coarse particles enhance the effect, but only if there is also some fine material present in the comp. Thus, with magnalium a grade passing e.g. 80 or 100 mesh (i.e. also containing very fine metal) seems to be better than e.g. 80-100 mesh. As seen above atomized Al can also be employed, which I have not tested so far. I have also made 30:70 MgAl specifically for eggs - that is coming up. This is my limited experience.

Edited June 10, 2012 by AdmiralDonSnider

[FlaMtnBkr]

I have experimented a lot with dragon eggs and I think you might be making things more difficult than they need to be, or at least changing too many variables at one time. I started out trying a couple different formulas using the same chemicals and picked the one I liked best. I picked the 37.5/37.5/25 formula because it used less bismuth and they seemed more reliable and also the loudest. From there I was able to take that one formula and then make changes to it to change the effect of the dragon egg. Changing the particle size of the magnalium really changes the effect. I think DE can be looked at like a type of strobe where there is a smolder and a flash phase, and like a strobe, the frequency is changed by changing the metal particle size. If you use a smaller mesh MgAl it speeds up the frequency and can cause a lot of small fast pops. Use larger mesh MgAl and it slows it down until you get only one pop which is really loud.

 

I try to make my DE so there is only one pop. I like them loud and when there are multiple pops I think quite a bit of the egg is wasted sometimes as little pieces ignite and break away from the main egg. Once you get the DE to pop only once, then the size of the egg can be changed. When they pop once it seems as if small ones are as loud as bigger ones. Making them smaller seems like it is more efficient with the chemicals if you get more eggs that are just as loud. After you get your formula, particle size, and DE size dialed in you can further tweak them with small adjustments to MgAl particle size so the DE glow and pop as fast as possible, yet in one single pop. Sometimes they can glow for too long and either never pop, or 'go out' when used in an aerial device. When they fly through the air it can cool them enough that some or all don't pop. Replacing a portion of coarser MgAl with finer MgAl will speed them up if they are smoldering too long. A good prime is necessary but doesn't always make them pop if they have a long smoldering delay.

 

This sounds a bit more complicated than the process usually is, but if they aren't behaving right gives some insight into what to change. More than likely they will work just fine the first time using 200 mesh MgAl. The last thing I will mention is the NC lacquer. I have always used NCL made from smokeless powder and have tried both single and double base. I normally use the double base as it almost seems like they are louder than the other types of NCL I have tried. Since ping pong balls aren't really nitrocellulose I don't know how good of eggs can be made using it. I know people have used it successfully but don't know if they could be better using real NCL. I know there are people who think the NC helps the DE smolder and stay lit. It might be worth trying to locate some real NC to make your eggs with. That said, I have some other chems I am going to try using as a binder that don't supply their own oxygen like NC does, that I want to try just to see if it works. DE are basically a thermite and may not need the NC. However, when I have not used a lot of NCL to make DE they sometimes seem to have problems so I have a feeling it is an integral part of the effect. DE can work well on the ground and not work at all when used in a ball shell for a brocade type effect where many DE crash at once with added titanium. I think this is sometimes caused by not using enough NC. Also, 5 or 10% ti makes each DE a bright explosion that throws sparks. A tablespoon or so of these DE lit on the ground sounds like a 200 strip of firecrackers going off in about a second and throws a 20' diameter half sphere of sparks. Looks very impressive up close at night.

 

Hopefully you can follow all of this as I'm sitting in a hospital bed and rambling a bit. I also wasn't trying to say your experiments were bad. Just throwing out my experiences since I did a lot of experimenting with them as I think they are pretty darn cool and impressive for their size.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Hm, so bismuth is better than lead in this respect. Typical. Though lead tetraoxide is cheaper than the bismuth compounds.

[Guest pyroman698]

these are kinda expensive once u get into makeing alot of them

[Anarchy08]

these are kinda expensive once u get into makeing alot of them

 

yes over here in Australia bismuth compounds can go for around 80 a kilo(2 pounds), depending if you can get them, I'm not sure how much you pay, pls don't tell me. Each test batch was 100 grams, so around half that was actualy a bismuth compound.

@ FlaMtnBkr,

Thanks, for the insight of your experiences, for most of what you said I have already learned and read I appreciate the knowledge passed on. As for the changing of variables at a too fast a rate, I will agree with you there but supplies will argue to what I have on hand, hence the red copper oxide. from what I gather I can relate to the NC being vital to the smoulder phase of the eggs, the thermite reaction is there but no fuel to aid the system in ignition, what is there to light the MgAl ?Also seen dragon egs perform perfectly using redgum binding with the absence of NC.

 

Pingpong ball Laquor I can can vouch for working pretty much all of the time, comp depending, NC double base powder require gun licenses over here and too much trouble to go through. Synthesis of NC at home in which I have the means to do so, seems wasted to simply dissolve to a laquor. Kmart has 60 pingpong balls for 4 bucks and acetone $10/L

 

I completely agree with you, that particle size is directly responsible for the effect and delay of the eggs, my experiments were basically a test to find the comp /metal oxide to suit the effect that I desire that I have now found: Bismuth subcarbonate using from what I found out is actually 60 mesh flake MgAl with 200 mesh to aid ignition, the effect gives is 2 sec smoulder phase with one complete report, the perfect egg as you describe.

The Antinomy, i can say would not be as you would define a dragon egg, but the effect resulting is still worth checking out, a pleasing sizzling effect similar to the crackler ball fireworks (rare in AUS) larger particle size slowing down the rate. the addition of the Ti, will this mess with the delay/fuel value? or was this added to the prime?

@

AdmiralDonSnider

 

cheers for the info, the 7:1 will come in handy when I get to the stage that im making my own alloy, im only at casting Lead antinomy media Atm in the experience with playing with liquid metal, but am up to Barium chlorate manufacture

Thought I should do a proper write up to let people know of my experiences as I have searched and found nothing here or passfire on the use of Antinomy trioxide.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Anarchy08

[FlaMtnBkr]

I just read my post again and it sounds a bit negative which I wasn't trying to sound that way. Sorry if it reads that way. I was really just trying to point out that you can probably take one formula and tweak it until you get the results you want if you have a couple sizes of MgAl available. But knowing that the various metal oxides you used can be made to make noise is a good result. And bismuth trioxide is expensive over here in the US as well. I don't know how the USD compares to the Aus dollar right now but the trixoxide goes for $40/lb a lot. If you buy a drum you can get it closer to $20/lb but that is at least 50 lbs. Subcarbonate used to be a lot cheaper but I haven't seen a source in a couple years.

 

The NC seems to do a few things but I haven't experimented with alternatives so I don't know what works as a replacement. The NC binds the eggs, protects the MgAl, and provides a little oxygen which should help with the smolder I would think (and others seem to agree it plays a fairly critical role here). I have read where others have used red gum as a binder but it also looked like the eggs were only used on the ground. I don't know how well they would work in aerial effects or how long they would last. Many people have reported DE going 'bad' and it has been hypothesized that it may happen from a lack of NC. If the MgAl isn't protected well then I guess this could be the cause. I wouldn't think red gum would provide any protection so maybe they go bad with that binder? There are other things that could be used as a binder that would waterproof the eggs better and might be a better binder? A small amount of oxidizer might also help with the smolder, but again just a guess. But if the ping pong ball lacquer works that is great for those that can't get NC. I have some other things I want to try as binders in stars and might have to see how they work in DE as well.

 

The titanium I have used is added directly to the DE comp and I usually use a granular type but I think sponge, spherical, or any type would work. I haven't noticed any difference in eggs that contain the ti so I don't think it changes the delay if used. It adds a great visual effect if you want more than just noise. I also have never heard of antimony trioxide being used in DE. I know some stars with a high percentage of MgAl can make a sizzling noise from the MgAl. I don't suppose that could be what's happening with it? Might be worth tweaking the MgAl particle size and maybe even the percentages if you can get a loud DE from it. Of coarse I've never even heard of it before so I don't know how easy it is to get or how expensive.

 

Good luck with the testing and let us know if you learn more.

 

 

 

 

yes over here in Australia bismuth compounds can go for around 80 a kilo(2 pounds), depending if you can get them, I'm not sure how much you pay, pls don't tell me. Each test batch was 100 grams, so around half that was actualy a bismuth compound.

@ FlaMtnBkr,

Thanks, for the insight of your experiences, for most of what you said I have already learned and read I appreciate the knowledge passed on. As for the changing of variables at a too fast a rate, I will agree with you there but supplies will argue to what I have on hand, hence the red copper oxide. from what I gather I can relate to the NC being vital to the smoulder phase of the eggs, the thermite reaction is there but no fuel to aid the system in ignition, what is there to light the MgAl ?Also seen dragon egs perform perfectly using redgum binding with the absence of NC.

 

Pingpong ball Laquor I can can vouch for working pretty much all of the time, comp depending, NC double base powder require gun licenses over here and too much trouble to go through. Synthesis of NC at home in which I have the means to do so, seems wasted to simply dissolve to a laquor. Kmart has 60 pingpong balls for 4 bucks and acetone $10/L

 

I completely agree with you, that particle size is directly responsible for the effect and delay of the eggs, my experiments were basically a test to find the comp /metal oxide to suit the effect that I desire that I have now found: Bismuth subcarbonate using from what I found out is actually 60 mesh flake MgAl with 200 mesh to aid ignition, the effect gives is 2 sec smoulder phase with one complete report, the perfect egg as you describe.

The Antinomy, i can say would not be as you would define a dragon egg, but the effect resulting is still worth checking out, a pleasing sizzling effect similar to the crackler ball fireworks (rare in AUS) larger particle size slowing down the rate. the addition of the Ti, will this mess with the delay/fuel value? or was this added to the prime?

@

AdmiralDonSnider

 

cheers for the info, the 7:1 will come in handy when I get to the stage that im making my own alloy, im only at casting Lead antinomy media Atm in the experience with playing with liquid metal, but am up to Barium chlorate manufacture

Thought I should do a proper write up to let people know of my experiences as I have searched and found nothing here or passfire on the use of Antinomy trioxide.

[Anarchy08]

I too have experience NC bound eggs gone bad, but found this due to nitrate in the prime, unsure if enough NC was added to buffer. the standard dragon egg formula floating around the 70/30/10 perc/mgal/redgum has a bad habit of consuming dragon eggs if used too heavily. Your post did seem conditioning but it is the net, so everything taken with a pinch of salt no harm done, this is place to swap info not get banned for spamming shit at eachother without actually having a convo.

USA pyros eggs do bring something interesting to the conversation, the lack of NC watching his video they performed remarkably but the delay was simply too long, as you said would cool down when coming out of a shell at high speed in the nights sky, i didnt notice the particle size of the mgal dont think it was specified, I could be wrong but from what I have learned it would have been coarse particles, speed it up with some -325 and you have a decent comp.

Any idea of why the perc is in there though? heat? oxidiser for the redgum?

 

thanks for the tip with the Ti, will try it out, i did intend to make a prime for it with some fast acting eggs but this seem excellent. As for the Antinomy trioxide its cheap, real cheap so i thought it was worth a shot. I have experience the crackling that you mentioned with course, but how about my tests with -325? it had a definite strobe action, made clearer when tested while still wet, as it slowed down things to get some perspective. will post another write up one my chems come in, shouldn't be too long.

 

Is there any formulas or combinations that I should try on my next experiment?