spitfire Posted June 4, 2012 Posted June 4, 2012 I have been searching and testing for over 3 years for a composition that the Chinese use in their yellow or green visco in cake items. I tested dozens of compositions, which sometimes gave very suprising visco, but not what i was looking for. I burned and wasted several pounds of expensive chemicals over time but most of 'em where useless. The ''flow'' was sometimes a real pain, using NC laquer sometimes ruined the composition, or a lot of dross was left behind when the fuse burned. Here is what works great for me now: KClO4 70Potassium Benzoate 26Airfloat willow C 2Sulfur 2 It is actually a modified whistle. Be aware of the dangers when working with those compositions. Do NOT use chlorate instead! Why was i searching so long for this composition and the typical properties it has as a fuse? Nothing fancy, i just love the aggressive hissing noise when it burns, the large hot flame and the smell... My wife repeatedly watched me in confusion why i was working on fuse AGAIN ''while you have miles of good fuse in stock?!'' The misses just doesn't get it....
graumann Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 So what was the burn rate of this comp and the advantages over just straight up BP or one of the other Perc lift/charge powders?
spitfire Posted June 6, 2012 Author Posted June 6, 2012 (edited) The burn rate lies between 1,5 to 2 cm/sec, and the advantages are mentioned above.. I was looking for a fuse to connect the tubes of cake items, this asks for a faster fuse in some cases. This composition worked for me for what i was looking for: a combination of specific properties. EDIT: combined with some fine Ti it gives wonderful flying fish fuse too. When a piece of 1 to 2 inch is ignited and thrown, it flies in all directions aggressively. Edited June 6, 2012 by spitfire
AdmiralDonSnider Posted June 6, 2012 Posted June 6, 2012 Nice! And are you using this in a visco machine?
spitfire Posted June 9, 2012 Author Posted June 9, 2012 Yes, i only use it as visco, made on my own machine.
graumann Posted June 9, 2012 Posted June 9, 2012 I am looking to some inspiration (or to blatantly copy a machine, all of the designs I've found don't mention the spin ratios of the two discs and puller hub), is there any chance of getting pictures or measurements of your machine spitfire?
spitfire Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) graumann, i could give you all sizes and dimensions, but my machine wasn't built from any blueprint. I just made it out of scrap laying around. All pulleys, disks, collection spool.. all of it was chosen for what was easiest to work with. This is my 3rd machine, so i got a bit of a feeling for the speeds needed. In the end it doesn't matter all that much. You can easily change the pulling action or pulleys if it doesn't work properly. But of course i would be more than willing to help you in any way, so fire your questions at will!EDIT: i will upload some pictures for you, but be warned... the whole thing looks like shit. But it works! The basic idea works, and the fuse coming of it works well enough for me. Edited June 11, 2012 by spitfire
spitfire Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 On a second thought, i think i will write an article about making visco with a homemade machine. There is a lot of detailed info that makes work much easier, or what i haven't seen in other people's descriptions. I have seen a lot of details in a fuse factory in China, as anybody might know, the Chinese have very simple low tech solutions for what we consider difficulties that can only be solved with expensive tooling. For example, a vibrating motor on the funnel is not necessary, a built-in NC coating is not necessary... even the time fuse machine was a very simple machine. On the other hand other fuse makers could share their info too. But i think we should go to the right topic for that...?
graumann Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I have had a search around and there are some people out there who have made very good machines but I think you are the first person I've managed to catch "live". I was think so far as the nc coating was concerned I would just string out the visco and paint it in pingpong lacquer & camphor by hand, as for the rest a low tech hand cranked machine that would be capable to producing even just tens of metres would suffice. Simply because all I have tools for is basic wood working I have got together mostly plywood boards & dowel to make as much of the machine as possible. The design I was working towards was a vertical type. Edited June 11, 2012 by graumann
spitfire Posted June 12, 2012 Author Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) The way i coat my visco is by winding it around 2 rods drilled inside a working table and under constant tension, wind the uncoated visco around it from one rod to the other and back. Then i just ''paint'' it with 3 or 4 layers of NC. It's dry in a few minutes, and the fuse it cut loose from the rods. I placed the rods about 2 meters apart, the avarage size of a normal dinner table. This method is extremely cheap, easy and fast. Not worth going trough all the trouble of making any semi automatic device to coat the fuse. I will try to get some pics here: (fingers crossed) The machine itself. Very basic, low tech, but it works great. Some of the uncoated fuse on the collection spool. Some examples of various fuses i made with this machine. No need to buy fuse anymore! Good lord, it worked...graumann, basic wood working tools are some of the tooling that comes most in hand the way i built it. You'll need to determine the exact center of several parts and if needed, sand them down by placing the whole in a drill, (by placing a bolt and nut in the center and use the bolt to place it in the drill) and hold it against a belt sanding machine while running both. That is the easiest way for getting disks and rods to the right size and almost perfectly centered. A tool to drill holes exactly 90 degrees is also very handy when making firework tooling. A hand cranked machine is also possible, my first version was hand operated too. Too bad cops confiscated it years ago. It worked, although i needed more than 2 hands to operate it well. Back in those days i didn't have a clue about NC coating so it never produced any usable fuse. The 3rd version you see in the picture can even operate when i'm not around. I just charge the machine, start it and walk away. I just need to make sure i'm back to turn it off when there is no more powder left in the container. Edited June 12, 2012 by spitfire
PyroAce Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 Visco fuse making in a Chinese fireworks factory, the video also features firecracker fuse and quickmatch, the visco fuse is towards the end of the video and you need to watch part 4 of the video where it continues: Part 4:
PyroAce Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 This one is good and it includes plans for the visco fuse machine he made:
graumann Posted July 29, 2012 Posted July 29, 2012 Plans for that machine not yet available, but he hopes to get them up soon. Spitfire, I would like to thank you for your help in giving the ratio's you used, I've built my version of the machine but haven't really tested it and got it all fine tuned yet, I should be able to scan my drawings and offer them for others when I know it works well. Would it be possible to find out the method/lacquer you used to coat the fuse?
spitfire Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 The way i coat my visco is partly from how i saw the Chinese do it in some occasions. The uncoated fuse that runs on the collection spool is under tension. It is very important to keep it under tension at all times when not coated. I take the collection spool from the machine, and tie the end (beginning?) to a standing steel rod. This is simply done by drilling a hole in a workbench and stick the rod in. This is done at both ends of course, you''ll need two rods about 2 feet high and about 10 feet apart from each other. When the fuse machine used all the composition i let it run for a few feet or so to have some empty fuse for a knot. Then i turn the uncoated fuse around both rods and end up with 10 or 20 strands of roughly 10 feet under tension between the rods. This is coated with a simple el cheapo 2'' block brush and very thick NC lacquer. Just brush it from the front and the back. Don't be afraid of damaging anything, use a lot of thick syrupy lacquer and coat at least 3 times on both sides. I use some coloring agent in the NC too, so i can recognize the fuse later for it's properties. After 10 or 15 minutes the fuse is dry enough to cut it off the rods with a sharp knife, and you''ll end up with a bundle of fuse ready to cut and use.
PyroAce Posted August 3, 2012 Posted August 3, 2012 (edited) Plans for that machine not yet available, but he hopes to get them up soon. Spitfire, I would like to thank you for your help in giving the ratio's you used, I've built my version of the machine but haven't really tested it and got it all fine tuned yet, I should be able to scan my drawings and offer them for others when I know it works well. Would it be possible to find out the method/lacquer you used to coat the fuse? The plans are up, see this site: http://students.olin...se_machine.html If someone had access to a CNC mill and a lathe I don't see why they don't make a few fuse machines and sell them in kit form, I'd buy one. Edited August 3, 2012 by PyroAce
MikeB Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 The way i coat my visco is by winding it around 2 rods drilled inside a working table and under constant tension, wind the uncoated visco around it from one rod to the other and back. Then i just ''paint'' it with 3 or 4 layers of NC. It's dry in a few minutes, and the fuse it cut loose from the rods. I placed the rods about 2 meters apart, the avarage size of a normal dinner table. This method is extremely cheap, easy and fast. Not worth going trough all the trouble of making any semi automatic device to coat the fuse. I will try to get some pics here: (fingers crossed) The machine itself. Very basic, low tech, but it works great. Some of the uncoated fuse on the collection spool. Some examples of various fuses i made with this machine. No need to buy fuse anymore! Good lord, it worked...graumann, basic wood working tools are some of the tooling that comes most in hand the way i built it. You'll need to determine the exact center of several parts and if needed, sand them down by placing the whole in a drill, (by placing a bolt and nut in the center and use the bolt to place it in the drill) and hold it against a belt sanding machine while running both. That is the easiest way for getting disks and rods to the right size and almost perfectly centered. A tool to drill holes exactly 90 degrees is also very handy when making firework tooling. A hand cranked machine is also possible, my first version was hand operated too. Too bad cops confiscated it years ago. It worked, although i needed more than 2 hands to operate it well. Back in those days i didn't have a clue about NC coating so it never produced any usable fuse. The 3rd version you see in the picture can even operate when i'm not around. I just charge the machine, start it and walk away. I just need to make sure i'm back to turn it off when there is no more powder left in the container. I have to admit that is a work of art. It may not be beautiful, but IT IS. Thank you for sharing with us.
pyrogeorge Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 Nice machine spitfire!Can you share the speed of the circles?thanks
dave321 Posted August 4, 2012 Posted August 4, 2012 not being an engineer, can someone explain the bit where the central powder core is somehow covered with the thread,i guess its the top part of the machine i just cant get my head round it, does it need a special die for all the threads ? i guess its covered again with more thread on the second platform. close up video might help me visualise whats going on some of you clever people should offer a kit !! dave
PyroAce Posted August 6, 2012 Posted August 6, 2012 some of you clever people should offer a kit !! dave Thats what I keep saying, in kit form it would be a smaller size to send, there is definetely a market out there for these machines.
spitfire Posted August 6, 2012 Author Posted August 6, 2012 Not a bad idea, maybe i need to talk to some friends and family who have the knowledge and tools for making this concept an easy to build kit or complete machines....
graumann Posted August 7, 2012 Posted August 7, 2012 Draw up some plans in timber for the more complex parts for cutting on a cnc machine and the rest can be standard timber, to fit a common TEFC motor, easy as pie, if you can do the drawings and get a good rate on the machine. I am really surprised no one has done this, but I suppose it is no more legal to sell the machine than actual fuse in places that necessitate making your own.
spitfire Posted August 9, 2012 Author Posted August 9, 2012 There is no legality problem at all... it would be just a bunch of construction material, for making a weaving machine. Who said it is used for making fuse? and there is no law in the world that states ''one can't own, produce or make a weaving machine... easy as cake.
chrisman Posted August 28, 2012 Posted August 28, 2012 Hi all. I am more into high power rockets than fireworks and I needed visco fuse for my varius experiments. Since its imposible to find it here I decided to build my own machine about 2 months ago .Right now I have more than a thousand meters of fuse(once you build the machine it dosend cost a lot to make fuse plus I had to experiment a lot) from 1.6 mm to 3 mm mostly 2.4 and burn rates from 15 sec to 50 sec per 30 cm. It dosend burn as agresively as proffesional visco but is very close ,the most important is that is very consistent ,reliable ,and totally waterproof I even gave about 30 meters to a firework importer and they did a firework show without any problems. My visco fuse machine produces fuse at about 250 meters per hour .If anyone needs any information about the machine and the hole process I will be happy to help. Few days ago I made some black powder with nitrocellulose (for fuse ) and the burn rate was 5 sec per 30 cm but still not so agressive as proper visco Right now I cannot get potassium perchlorite but a friend gave me a lot of firecrackers and the powder inside is white 90%fine with some coarse like sugar (bit smaller). when I burnd some of it unconfined it made some cracking noise . It may be whistle powder but I am not sure .Any ideas ??
spitfire Posted August 30, 2012 Author Posted August 30, 2012 crisman, first of all, congrads for making a working visco machine! When i started this thread, it was about the compositions i used for making some reliable, aggressive fuse like you find on commercial cakes and rockets. Maybe you can try to experiment with that as a start? Also your fuse speeds up when you use finely grained BP or a composition with KClO4 and Willow charcoal. Maybe you have already tested with these powders, if not, it might be worth a try for you.
chrisman Posted August 30, 2012 Posted August 30, 2012 Well yes I did try all black powder compinations I could think off . One thing that make a diference when all other factors are the same is the actual thread it self . When I use cotton the fuse burnd smooth with almost no sparks and very thin flame living a red hot burned fuse behind (no fancy flying ) . With the same composition and method BUT with a polyester yarn the fuse burned with an agresive flame and sound but again not like the proffesional visco . I would say 70% close to the real thing. I buy my kno3 from a garden centre and i purifiy it with the Recrystallization method .The charcoal I do my self mostly pine . I did try grapevine charcoal and the rate of burn was constant but slow ,40 sec per foot (no dextrin) and 50 sec per foot (3%dextrin) .A few days ago I made some sulfurless BP 75-25 and I add about 30% hexanitrate NC solution (the nc solution was made of 35gr guncotton,8.5gr camphor dissolved in 1 liter af aceton ) and then made it into very fine granules. When I did the test burn the rate was 4 sec per foot and the fuse was really kicking and screaming . I did try in the past mixing flash powder with BP but the fastes was 15 sec per foot . The BP-NC composition made the trick but is way too fast . Another think I tried in the past few days was mixing 1gr of the white powder taken from the firecrackers (which I mention in my 1st post above) with 1 gr of sulfurless 75-25 BP . The burned rate was 25 sec /30cm and was 90% closed to the real thing. I tested 4 differend kinds of real visco fuse and I am convinced that there is no sulfur in there compsition What can I say My wife is really bugging me as to why I still make fuse when I have a ton of rolls of fuse around Since I am new here I will introduce myself with a video of what I like to do . I am the guy wearing a yellow t-shirt ......here is the link
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