DoomsdayFAN Posted May 29, 2012 Posted May 29, 2012 1) I was just wondering if the type of plugs used (paper vs plastic) caused a difference in performance? I know the paper plugs are a little cheaper, but the plastic are more durable. Does durability matter in this case? Should I just get the cheaper paper plugs? Or should I get the plastic ones? Also, which between the two are easier to work with when glueing them to the tube? 2) When working with chemicals that may combust from a static charge, I've read of some people on here spraying themselves with anti-static spray. Sounds like a good idea, but in addition with spraying myself down with anti-static spray, should I spray this stuff directly on the powders I will be working with? Should I spray the surface area (including the paper used for mixing;table;etc) down with this stuff too? Or does it negatively affect the powder chemicals? In other words, what should I spray, and what should I NOT spray? Thank You!
dagabu Posted May 29, 2012 Posted May 29, 2012 For the same reason that the plastic plugs are more durable, they also become more hazardous when flying at a high rate of speed. They are also much harder to glue in, they often have to have a fillet of epoxy holding them in. I prefer paper for lots of reasons:1. I can punch them out myself.2. Biodegradable.3. White glue is cheap and holds well.4. They take less room in the tube if done right5. Cheap! Static spray:I use dryer sheets when static is present and NEVER work with flash or whistle when it is. Static spray is made from chemicals that I don't want in the air. -dag
mikeee Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Has anyone ever used foam backer rod for plugs?One of my relatives has a construction business and uses a lot of the foam backer rods.They make it in 1/4,3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 1, 1-1/4, and 1-1/2 diameter foam rods.The rod can be compressed to fit various size tubes.You can use Elmers glue to secure them in a cardboard tube.A razor knife works quick to cut them to any length.I have used them as plugs ,spacers and as a fuse pass on several projects.Any feed-back would be appreciated.
FlaMtnBkr Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 What is it used for? Where is it sold? Sounds like it could be useful or at least worth looking into more. Has anyone ever used foam backer rod for plugs?One of my relatives has a construction business and uses a lot of the foam backer rods.They make it in 1/4,3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 1, 1-1/4, and 1-1/2 diameter foam rods.The rod can be compressed to fit various size tubes.You can use Elmers glue to secure them in a cardboard tube.A razor knife works quick to cut them to any length.I have used them as plugs ,spacers and as a fuse pass on several projects.Any feed-back would be appreciated.
dagabu Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Has anyone ever used foam backer rod for plugs?One of my relatives has a construction business and uses a lot of the foam backer rods.They make it in 1/4,3/8, 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 1, 1-1/4, and 1-1/2 diameter foam rods.The rod can be compressed to fit various size tubes.You can use Elmers glue to secure them in a cardboard tube.A razor knife works quick to cut them to any length.I have used them as plugs ,spacers and as a fuse pass on several projects.Any feed-back would be appreciated. Hmmmm, I wonder if they could be used for roman candle spacers? Care to send a 1" one to me? -dag
DoomsdayFAN Posted May 30, 2012 Author Posted May 30, 2012 3. White glue is cheap and holds well. How does white glue compare to hot glue gun glue? (And when you say white, are you refering to elmers wood glue?) Static spray:I use dryer sheets when static is present and NEVER work with flash or whistle when it is. Static spray is made from chemicals that I don't want in the air. -dag How do you use dryer sheets when mixing chems? Do you just rub everything within reach down with the sheet? One last thing, what would you recommend between leather cowhide welders gloves vs neopreen chem-resistent gloves when mixing dry powder chemicals? I can see the plus sides of both, but at the moment, I'm leaning toward the welders gloves because they seem to offer more protection against unexpected reaction (possible explosion) when mixing.
TheSidewinder Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 White glue is used when you want good holding strength without adding "thickness" or bulk, like when gluing in end caps. And yes, it's ordinary Elmer's White Glue. The anti-stat.... I'll let dag elaborate on that. I'm half-curious myself. EDIT: Oh, and for mixing "ordinary" chems..... I just use Nitrile gloves. The neoprene gloves would probably work ok, but... not so much with the welder's gloves.
dagabu Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Hot glue is expedient but expensive and inferior to Elmer's type white glues when used to bond paper to paper. Epoxy and hot glue grab the fibers on the very outside of the paper, water based glues whet in a few thousandths of an inch and hold better then the expedient ones. Flat disks glued into the end of a tube will allow plenty of confinement for fast compositions and a double disk set back 1/8" of an inch and glued into the end individually will perform as well as clay in a stout tube. Eco friendly dryer sheets found at health stores are made with a small amount of Stearic Acid while the bulk of commercial dryer sheets have Dipalmitoylethyl hydroxyethylmonium methosulfate that keeps the positive charge from building when stuff rubs against the surfaces of your tools or bowls etc. No spray will do anything to keep the chems themselves from building static, only a higher humidity will do that. Specifically, the dryer sheets just coat the fibers with a waxy slippery substance that does not allow static to build, on hard surfaces, it acts as a barrier. You can use used dryer sheets as well but yes, rub everything down with them before working on fireworks. Leather welding gloves work well against flame and heat, they will keep the skin on your fingers if you have a small explosion but 50g of flash will rip the gloves off your hands taking bones with them since they will stay somewhat whole and will act as a parachute. Thin nitril gloves work well as a chemical barrier and do not contribute to static. If a large shell goes off in your hands or a good sized salute, gloves will not matter. -dag 1
DoomsdayFAN Posted May 30, 2012 Author Posted May 30, 2012 Great advice, thank you. So then I guess I'll go ahead and just get the elmers white glue for when I glue the paper plugs to the paper tube. Is white glue good to use when glueing plastic plugs to paper tubes? (i.e. if the tube is too big for paper plugs so I'm forced to use plastic plugs) Speaking of salutes, when making them (especially the bigger ones) what are other additional steps I can take to make sure it doesn't go off when I don't want it too? I figure if I work on them outside, anti-static the work area, use the diaper method, go slow, take my time and be pay attention, and baby the whole process, hopefully I'll be fine. Just to be completely honest though, I plan to start off relatively small. Like with 3.5 grams or so. But in the future, I will most likely want to go bigger. And since I'm basically determined to do this (abstaining isn't in the cards), I just want to be as careful and safe as possible while doing it.
Algenco Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 I think it's the foam used for filler around windows before sealing with silicone.They would probably prvide as much containment as the paper plugs do.My only concern would be static What is it used for? Where is it sold? Sounds like it could be useful or at least worth looking into more.
dagabu Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Speaking of salutes, when making them (especially the bigger ones) what are other additional steps I can take to make sure it doesn't go off when I don't want it too? I figure if I work on them outside, anti-static the work area, use the diaper method, go slow, take my time and be pay attention, and baby the whole process, hopefully I'll be fine. Just to be completely honest though, I plan to start off relatively small. Like with 3.5 grams or so. But in the future, I will most likely want to go bigger. And since I'm basically determined to do this (abstaining isn't in the cards), I just want to be as careful and safe as possible while doing it. As I have spoken of in another post in reply to your request, I have no desire to help you make salutes. I will help you with specific questions regarding plugs, glue and tubes as these are used in artistic displays but that is it. No, white glue does not work with plastic. It has to soak in to bond effectively. That said, if the plastic has harsh ribs, it may provide enough friction to hold the plug in place. -dag
dagabu Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 I think it's the foam used for filler around windows before sealing with silicone.They would probably prvide as much containment as the paper plugs do.My only concern would be static Polyethylene cell foam is not usually a static generator. -dag
Peret Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Speaking of salutes, when making them (especially the bigger ones) what are other additional steps I can take to make sure it doesn't go off when I don't want it too?We don't have much information on making salutes here. I think it would be useful if you set up a video camera to film you at work from a safe distance, and leave instructions for your estate to forward the video to us in the event of an accident so we can take a look at it and see what additional steps might be worth suggesting. If you could arrange not to die immediately and to give us some dramatic screams and clear wound pictures, we'd have something to show the next guy that asks. 1
Short5 Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Funny, there seems to be a trend of a few new registers asking how to glue end plugs in and make salutes. The last time they didn't get the answer and left in a huff.
DoomsdayFAN Posted May 30, 2012 Author Posted May 30, 2012 Nah, it's no big deal. I understand where everyone is coming from and I fully appreciate it. More than anything, I just want to learn as much as possible, and that's why I'm here. I figure the more knowledge I have, the safer I can be. And I'm interested in more than just salutes. But salutes are what sparked my interest in the first place; I'm not gunna lie.
dagabu Posted May 30, 2012 Posted May 30, 2012 Nah, it's no big deal. I understand where everyone is coming from and I fully appreciate it. More than anything, I just want to learn as much as possible, and that's why I'm here. I figure the more knowledge I have, the safer I can be. And I'm interested in more than just salutes. But salutes are what sparked my interest in the first place; I'm not gunna lie. Just like us all I am afraid. I like reports, I like salutes, I make them all the time, a bottom shot is a nice way to tell everyone that the shell has concluded and it shocks those attending the show as well. What I don't like is getting attention that we don't want, having DHS or ATF reading posts and thinking that we are people that have destruction in mind. I for one do not want to let an art form die and want to learn about and then make the fireworks myself to safely display at a licensed and legal shoot. Why not just move on to the items we cover here, read some about compositions, make some rockets (that would be a strong hint there) and make some shells. Heck, throw a nice big beraq shell up there in the sky and show us that you can make a shell, now THAT would impress us! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R6gDt81HSw -dag
mikeee Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 In response to the question on the foam backer rod.They are used for concrete work and also for sealant around windows and doors.Most building supply stores carry them in several different sizes. (Home Depot, Lowes, Menards etc.)I used them on several projects they are quick and easy to cut to size.They will compress and fit multiple diameter tubes.White Elmers wood glue works well to secure them to the cardboard.You can also run a fuse thru the foam and glue it / pot it as a plug or spacer.The longer the spacer / fuse the longer the time delay. One of my other hobbies is making wine, so I have a large supply of corks.I have used corks as plugs and spacers on other projects which gave me the idea for the foam backer rod.
DoomsdayFAN Posted May 31, 2012 Author Posted May 31, 2012 That's a cool video and something I'd definitely like to work my way up to. If we could go back to the glue for a second, when you glue a fuse to the tube, I've only seen hot glue used. Can you also use elmers white glue to glue the fuse into the tube? Once glued, how does the fuse burn through the glue? Does the glue not get in the way or cause a restriction?
Peret Posted May 31, 2012 Posted May 31, 2012 Elmer's glue being wet by nature, I prefer not to use it around fuses. I use hot glue, or occasionally epoxy, because it's space-filling and leaves no cracks for fire to get into a shell or insert past the fuse. Apart from the moisture problem I wouldn't trust Elmer's not to shrink and crack. Visco fuse will keep going through pretty much any restrictions, including a well hammered clay plug, so long as it isn't badly kinked or frayed. Bare black match is a bit more fragile. It would probably burn through hot glue, but maybe not, and the heat would melt the glue before it finished. If there's any slack or looseness about its confinement it will flash through instantly. Wet glue would destroy it, but it will burn reliably through a clay plug. Proper time fuse has no problem burning through anything.
DoomsdayFAN Posted June 1, 2012 Author Posted June 1, 2012 I see. So then it sounds like elmers is good for the paper plugs (perhaps super glue for plastic? It cheaper than Epoxy) Rather than create a whole new thread, I might as well just ask in here........ what is the best when looking at mesh size of powder chemicals? Like, say you have two different meshs of the same chemical, one is "fine" -100 mesh and the other is "very fine" - 325 mesh. Which is better? What do these numbers mean and how does it affect the powder chemical during mixing?
Seymour Posted June 3, 2012 Posted June 3, 2012 the mesh system is basically how many squares in a mesh there are if you slapped a ruler down next to any wire and counted along an inch. That's an inch along the ruler, not every square in an inch squared. The bigger the number, the more wires per area, and the finer the gaps between the mesh. -100 is what falls goes through a hundred mesh. +100 is what does not, and so on. What it means in compositions is surface area, and that means almost everything. Often you want it as fine as possible, to get the smoothest, cleanest burn. There are some exceptions, notably spark effects, where the size of the Aluminium, Titanium, Charcoal and so on is going to have a great effect on the sparks. Depending on the context, 100 mesh is fine (like Ti), but if they advertise Aluminium or an oxidiser as fine at -100 mesh they are just beeing cheeky marketers.
redpaper427 Posted August 17, 2012 Posted August 17, 2012 Just to answer the mesh question the larger the mesh the finer the chemical powder. Thus it is more volatile.
MrB Posted April 18, 2015 Posted April 18, 2015 (edited) Hi everyone!Hi. This is my first post, so I hope I don´t get banned for asking my question in this thread.Mum can be a tad swift from time to time, but new players get some leniency, so i think you might be safe... For now. I wounder if there is some kind of "rule" how thick the clay plug should be? I imagine that it is a big difference according to how big of a tube you are using, but maybe there is an easy way to calculate how thick/big the plug shall be?About as thick, as the width of the tube, if it's structural. Most the time it's not, which makes it entirely irrelevant. (What i mean is, we generaly use a delay on top of a rocket engine, which provides part of, or even most of the structural integrity of the bulkhead. A thick clay plug in this case is just a waste of lifting power. Delay + clay-plug should be at least the diameter of the tube, and you should be good. (sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden so english not my first language)Oh no.... Not another one. Don't worry about it. Do your best. Were a few here, and so far we tend to stay out of trouble, at least when it comes to the linguistic parts. Stay Safe.B! Edited April 18, 2015 by MrB 1
MrB Posted April 18, 2015 Posted April 18, 2015 Thanks for your answer! I will make them as wide as the tube is then! If you make em any thinner, they just fall out... Joking aside, hope you'll enjoy your stay.B!
OblivionFall Posted April 19, 2015 Posted April 19, 2015 Hi everyone! This is my first post, so I hope I don´t get banned for asking my question in this thread. I wounder if there is some kind of "rule" how thick the clay plug should be? I imagine that it is a big difference according to how big of a tube you are using, but maybe there is an easy way to calculate how thick/big the plug shall be? (sorry for my bad english, I´m from Sweden so english not my first language) Edit:I see now that this is my second post. It really comes down to how fast your BP/Flash Powder is. If you're using a slow nitrate-based flash powder, then usually you'll have to make the plugs thicker. You can only really ram on end of the tube so you should try the paper plug + elmers glue method for the other end or both ends. You want the ends to be stronger than the tube itself so it breaks through the middle. If you're using chlorate/perchlorate flash powder, you don't really need to worry about making your plugs very strong.
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