Potassium Perchloride/Aluminum Powder + Magnesium?

[DoomsdayFAN]

I know mixing Potassium Perchlorate and Aluminum Powder makes for a nice bang, but what if I were to add super fine magnesium shavings as a third catalyst to this mixture? Would I get a bigger, brighter, or louder bang?

 

 

*Sorry, I meant to type Perchlorate, but I got going too fast and typed 'ide at the end* (In the forum title)

Edited May 28, 2012 by DoomsdayFAN

[Seymour]

I believe Magnesium can produce greater luminosity, and can be more brissant, thus a sharper crack, but this is with the disadvantage of being the most unstable fuel 'regularly' used in fireworks, and due to this, it's used only rarely, with stablisers, and generally considered unsuitable for long term storage.

 

Getting the Magnesium to be better than the Aluminium is not guaranteed though, due to certain variables that I'm sure you can become expert at with a bit of research.

 

Considering how powerful Aluminium can be, I personally suggest that you just stick to that, considering the rather small (potential) gain for the stability problems and greater sensitivity.

 

Flash powder is a relatively sensitive area on these forums, and on the more dedicated pyro community as a whole. While we discuss it (in fact almost everything about flash has been discussed in great detail), there is somewhat of a code of conduct that will change the reaction you get.

 

It is the most powerful explosive used in fireworks, and presents a severe danger, as is obvious. As such it's considered one of the last compositions to be made by a pyro, even though we know it's often the first.

 

We're also trying to carve an artistic niche of pyrotechnics, and ideally even stem the tide of public disapproval and basically, that people may treat us as terrorists or vandals. Most of us love a salute effect (many salute shells, and no one complains on here of bottom shots!) we don't want to be associated with the boomer crowd too much.

I expect most members have blown up a pumpkin on the odd occasion, but I hope most do so in a controlled, ideally legal setting. They also don't talk about it on here because of the bad associations, and also because there's very little to talk about when compared to rockets, stars, shells and so on.

 

As I said before, we urge people to refrain from making things like flash and whistle only when they know pyro inside out. While I'm not saying your an incompetent, or dangerous or mean any bad at all, you have shown you don't have the basics of pyro chemistry.

 

KClO4 is Potassium perchlorate

 

KClO4, Al and Mg are not catalysts (in this reaction at least). They're all very active participants in a redox reaction.

 

Anyway, As harsh as I may have just been (not too much I hope), welcome to the forums!

Edited May 28, 2012 by Seymour

[Bcorso85]

Seymour is very correct. And his posts are very intelligent and informative. I do not want to step on his toes by saying this, but magnalium metal is an alloy of both aluminum and magnesium that has the stability of aluminum and the reactivity of magnesium. Making it slightly safer but still dangerous. I hope you understand I am not helping you with flash, but only informing you of a very common fuel. Having done so I may have put my post in a grey area, where I don't want to be.

 

And yes I have blown up a pumpkin to cheer everyone up after a funeral!

 

Please read up on the instability of magnesium and its relatives before mixing with an oxidizer. I have read magnesium has very limited use in pyrotechnics.

[DoomsdayFAN]

Well thank you very much for the responses. I'm trying to be as careful as I can be. I mean, hah, I pretty much joined this forum in the first place just to ask this question, because I didn't just want to go blindly mixing stuff together. But this is such an informative place, I think I'll stick around.

 

As for the whole flash powder thing, I'm not trying to break any rules here or step on any toes, but I will be making it and I just wanted to be as responsible as possible and learn as much info about it as possible before doing so.

 

About the super fine magnesium shavings.... I have easy access to this stuff and I know it does some interesting things when used as a pyrotechnic, so I had thoughts about mixing it in addition to the Potassium/Aluminum mixture, but I wanted to make sure of what would happen first. While I take your guys' advice to heart, I still do not fully understand what will happen if I mix these three things together. Just let me say though, that with your warnings, I will be thinking twice about doing it, but I would just like to make sure first of exactly what could happen at any point while mixing them. Is it possible that as soon as I mix an ounce or so (or less) of magnesium shavings with the potas/alum powder (depending on the ratio), that it'll react just right then and there and explode in my face?

 

 

Again, thanks for the advice and the imput. I appreciate it! I just want to learn as much about this stuff as I can and I figured this site would be as good a place as any to start.

Edited May 28, 2012 by DoomsdayFAN

[Bcorso85]

Referring to your last sentence, magnesium flash can contain it self and bang in your face with as little as .5 grams....instead of a poof. So yes. Also you have two metals that spark rubbing against each other. Especially with the magnesium. The percentage really doesn't matter. You will just be adjusting brightness. It is extremely reactive and exothermic reactions can happen when water touches it. Remember as far as uncle Sam is concerned....you're making a high explosive based on the speed of its decomposition. That's terrorism charges. Especially with an apocalyptic screen name.

 

Be careful,

Ben

[DoomsdayFAN]

So then it sounds like I better just leave the Magnesium out of it altogether. Good to know. I wont even bother with it then. So, without the magnesium, how volatile are just the Potassium & Aluminum when mixing them in the traditional 7:3 ratio? I assume it would be safer to mix the components in as small of increments as possible, and then just combine everything right at the end?

 

About my screen name..... I am a fan of the DC comic book villain "Doomsday" (the one who killed Superman), which is why my name is DoomsdayFAN.

 

Believe me, I have absolutely ZERO intent of doing anything terroristic, or boneheaded and foolish. If I make flash powder salutes, I intend to use them as far away from the city limits (and people/animals/property) as possible. I am not a fan of the youtube jackasses who go out just to "blow stuff up." I want to be a responsible contributor to the pyrotechnic community.

[psyco_1322]

If you wanted, you can add it to flash and nothing bad is going to happen. If its somewhat coarse it will be like adding Ti and produce some white sparks. If it is fine, its going to get burned up faster and probably just slow down the flash unless its been tuned to burn the Mg as part of the formula.

 

Stick around and learn some stuff, it's good for you

[pyroviper]

Referring to your last sentence, magnesium flash can contain it self and bang in your face with as little as .5 grams....instead of a poof. So yes. Also you have two metals that spark rubbing against each other. Especially with the magnesium. The percentage really doesn't matter. You will just be adjusting brightness. It is extremely reactive and exothermic reactions can happen when water touches it. Remember as far as uncle Sam is concerned....you're making a high explosive based on the speed of its decomposition. That's terrorism charges. Especially with an apocalyptic screen name.

 

Be careful,

Ben

 

I don't believe flash is classified as a HE. I use to believe the same thing, until a licensed HE contractor stopped in the shop to purchase some parts for their trucks. Me

being the curious pyro I am seen the company logo on his truck, and decided to strike up a convo on the topic. He kinda cringed when I mentioned that flash was a HE, and

explained to me how explosives were classified. I believe it came down to the fact that flash doesn't detonate.

 

I do however completely agree with you on the Uncle Sam scenario, if it goes boom they consider it an explosive device and will treat you as such when it comes down to it.

[Mumbles]

When initiated with a fuse it does not detonate, when initiated with a blasting cap it gets to a threshold where it's a grey area and can be considered a high explosive. The ATF does differentiate between bulk salutes and a salute insert component. Bulk salutes and loose stored flash are considered to be high explosives and must be stored as such. http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2005-title27-vol2/pdf/CFR-2005-title27-vol2-sec555-202.pdf

[pyroviper]

When initiated with a fuse it does not detonate, when initiated with a blasting cap it gets to a threshold where it's a grey area and can be considered a high explosive. The ATF does differentiate between bulk salutes and a salute insert component. Bulk salutes and loose stored flash are considered to be high explosives and must be stored as such. http://www.gpo.gov/f...-sec555-202.pdf

 

 

Then I completely retract my post and now have something to take to work with me tomorrow <Evil Grin>

 

So let me make sure I am understanding you correctly Mumbles, it's classified as an HE however to truly become an HE you have to use a blasting cap?

[Potassiumchlorate]

Dr. Shimizu used "nr. 8" blasting caps to get flash to detonate, so yes, it's possible.

[Mumbles]

It's always a high explosive. However, from what I've read one needs a blasting cap to get it to act like one. I don't have my books handy to see what formula he tested. To be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some sort of deflagration-detonation transition at some mass. It always seems to me that bottom shots from shells 5"(~700g of 70:30) or larger hit you proportionally much harder in the chest than smaller ones.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Page 44. He used these:

 

Potassium perchlorate 72

Aluminium 28

 

Potassium perchlorate 70

Aluminium 27

Sulfur 3

 

Potassium perchlorate 64

Aluminium 23

Sulfur 13

 

The first had a detonation velocity of 1223m/s, the second 1418m/s and the third 1427m/s. It's "slow" compared to organic HE's, of course, but it's extremely fast compared to BP.

 

The nice thing is that the fastest one of them is also the cheapest. Good dark aluminium might cost up to 10 times more than sulfur.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate

[RegT]

I am a complete novice, but I have read in several locations on the Internet that potassium perchlorate and aluminum can be mixed on-site to be used as a legal exploding target capable of being set off by a .22 LR, as opposed to the Tannerite mixture which is also legal when mixed on-site but requires a projectile with greater kinetic energy.

 

If you merely possess the components in an unmixed state, it does not seem likely that you could be considered to be in possession of a high explosive. Am I wrong, or do not a number of fireworks - legal to purchase and possess in a number of states - contain flash powder in one configuration or another?

 

I have a question concerning Tannerite, if I might include it here in this discussion of flash powder (if this is not appropriate, do not answer and I will try to locate a forum where it is discussed):

I have read several people state that there are four components to Tannerite, yet I have obtained what appear to be the same results from using just ammonium nitrate prills and 30 micron aluminum. It was easily set off with a standard .223 round, and looked and sounded to have the same explosive force and report as the commercial Tannerite I had previously used.

 

Is there indeed a difference? Does commercial Tannerite actually have greater potency than the mere combination of Ammonium nitrate and aluminum?

[Potassiumchlorate]

Well, in the USA the mix is legal by federal law. In most other countries it's illegal without a permit/license but the chemicals on their own are usually legal to possess.

 

Commercial Tannerite seems to have some ammonium perchlorate in it and also some zirconium, but I'm in no doubt that AN and good Al flake will be possible to ignite with a .223 bullet.

[taiwanluthiers]

Do be careful... the USA Patriot Act (a misleading name) has very loose definition of what terrorism is. Basically it means that if the government wants to, anything like labor related strikes can be considered an act of terrorism!

 

The paranoia among the people and the government is very high since 9/11 and even today it is much higher than it was when 9/11 happened. I have no doubt that one day merely possessing the wrong chemicals (KP, dark AL, etc.) can be considered an act of terrorism.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Weird. When I was young, I considered the USA the defender of freedom on Earth. Reality seems to be a bit different. That terrorist paranoia doesn't exist in the same way in Europe, by the way, which also is peculiar, since terrorism is much more common here and has been so for decades - the IRA, the ETA, the RAF etc.

[taiwanluthiers]

Might have to do with the feeling of vunerability, or that the paranoia has existed for a long time and the terrorist attacks only confirms their fears.

 

By the way, I have just experimented with magalium flash. It's quite a bit potent than the spherical aluminum. I used potassium perchlorate, chlorate, and nitrate. The perchlorate seem to give the most vigorous reaction, causing a loud poof with a small quantity (probably less than half a gram, I did not measure), while the chlorate gave a bright light but just a hiss, and the nitrate barely reacted at all. Note the nitrate wasn't well powdered and I did not measure the ratios on the flash test, only eyeballed it 50:50 by volume. All of these are unconfined. The more vigorous flash mix required very little to ignite it so I assume it would be fairly sensitive, it scared me a bit in fact. The magalium is only 250 mesh (it says 0-63 um) so it's not anything finely powdered but magalium is quite reactive.

 

I think for the beginning pyro best thing to do is work on making good blackpowder. It is harder than you think but black powder is so important and good effects can be achieved with just the component of black powder. At the same time you can also work on producing good colors by making colored stars, only in that case will you need the stronger oxidizers and magalium as well as German dark pyro. One pound of German dark pyro will go a very long way when making stars as not too many comps require them, they're more for flash than for stars.

Edited July 1, 2012 by taiwanluthiers

[Algenco]

terrorism paranoia in the US is just a smoke screen to cover the assault on our freedoms

[Potassiumchlorate]

terrorism paranoia in the US is just a smoke screen to cover the assault on our freedoms

 

I know. That's the worst thing of all. We are quite a few people understanding it both in and outside the US, but the majority accepts this madness without questioning it.

[dagabu]

terrorism paranoia in the US is just a smoke screen to cover the assault on our freedoms

 

 

I know. That's the worst thing of all. We are quite a few people understanding it both in and outside the US, but the majority accepts this madness without questioning it.

 

Well said guys. I have been think a lot about this as of late and agree with you 100%.

 

-dag

[taiwanluthiers]

And something tells me that no matter who we vote for, or how much we bug our representatives, it will not make a difference because its probably all been decided by a group of people that no one even knows about.

 

Someone did say that democracy is at best a temporary form of government, and that it always lead to dictatorship.

[Bcorso85]

terrorism paranoia in the US is just a smoke screen to cover the assault on our freedoms

 

 

You are a smart man. You must be a fellow conservative

 

 

 

(Dont want to get into politics)

[Bcorso85]

And something tells me that no matter who we vote for, or how much we bug our representatives, it will not make a difference because its probably all been decided by a group of people that no one even knows about.

 

Someone did say that democracy is at best a temporary form of government, and that it always lead to dictatorship.

 

 

America is NOT a democracy. It is a repulic.

"and to the republic, for which it stands, one nation UNDER GOD; indivisable with liberty and justice for all."

[Potassiumchlorate]

There are no true democracies in the modern world. "Representative" "democracy" is probably the greatest fraud there ever was and one of the most successful ones too.

 

(Sorry for OT in this section.)