FlaMtnBkr Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 I bought 10 lbs of benzoic acid somewhat spur of the moment thinking I would make copper benzoate. After doing some research I see it is not very easy to do using benzoic acid as a precursor. So is there anything else I can use it for? I wonder if it will work as a fuel in whistle? It smells almost exactly like K or Na benzoate and it is a very strong odor. Not that smell means anything, just something I noticed. Thanks!
Potassiumchlorate Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 I have heard that barium benzoate and barium chlorate will make a nice colour though not a whistle. If I remember correctly, you can simply make barium benzoate from benzoic acid and barium carbonate.
WSM Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) I bought 10 lbs of benzoic acid somewhat spur of the moment thinking I would make copper benzoate. After doing some research I see it is not very easy to do using benzoic acid as a precursor. So is there anything else I can use it for? I wonder if it will work as a fuel in whistle? It smells almost exactly like K or Na benzoate and it is a very strong odor. Not that smell means anything, just something I noticed.Thanks! Benzoic acid is more soluble in alcohol than water at room temperature (I believe) and an alcoholic solution of it would probably work better to make copper (II) benzoate than a water solution, if my guess is right. Either copper carbonate or copper hydroxide may work as the base of choice in the reaction. Good luck and let us know what you decide. WSM Edit: if you want to make potassium benzoate or sodium benzoate, try making a benzoic acid solution in alcohol (try denatured ethanol) and neutralize it with a hydroxide solution of sodium or potassium. If you balance the Moles of each reactant, it should work nicely. I recommend a vacuum filtration of the filtrate and dry the product over a water bath before powdering it. Edited March 9, 2012 by WSM
MikeB Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Ah chemistry.Where there is a will there is a way. Making your own chems is sometimes a necessity. Other times it is just easier to buy it. Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Benzoate are both readily available and quite cheap.
WSM Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Making your own chems is sometimes a necessity. Other times it is just easier to buy it. Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Benzoate are both readily available and quite cheap. True, but not always available. If you have benzoic acid and copper powder, a mixture of the two in the proper proportions can sometimes be used as a substitution for the copper benzoate, according to C-J White in Pyrotechnica (if I remember correctly). WSM
Seymour Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I've made Copper benzoate with Benzoic acid and 'Basic Copper carbonate' (I believe a carbonate/hydroxide complex?). I forced the reaction by boiling it all together for hours (in water). It did take a while, and the benzoic acid acid was fairly hard to get stuff for me, so the Sodium benzoate/soluble Copper salt route was the one I usually use. However, if I had that much Benazoic acid, I might have done that. Avoiding the sodium wash is a bonus.
WSM Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I've made Copper benzoate with Benzoic acid and 'Basic Copper carbonate' (I believe a carbonate/hydroxide complex?).I forced the reaction by boiling it all together for hours (in water). It did take a while, and the benzoic acid acid was fairly hard to get stuff for me, so the Sodium benzoate/soluble Copper salt route was the one I usually use. However, if I had that much Benazoic acid, I might have done that. Avoiding the sodium wash is a bonus. I see where you've been with this. If I were to make copper benzoate by double displacement I would prefer to do it with copper sulfate (copper nitrate would be even better!) and potassium benzoate. There would be no sodium contamination and if copper nitrate were used instead the results would all be usable. We don't always have the option but that would be a nicer way to go... WSM
Mumbles Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 Doing the reaction in alcohol with copper carbonate would be an interesting one actually. When you do it in water, you get a hydrate out. However, if you do the synthesis in the presence of alcohol you get an ethanol adduct out. Both will desolvate to the same compound, but the alcohol one may be a little quicker burning or something. By the way, if you want to make the reaction happen quickly dissolve the copper carbonate in vinegar first. If you add a solution of benzoic acid in water or alcohol to the copper acetate solution, the product should crash right out. You may need to warm both the alcohol and water solutions to get enough into solution.
madmandotcom Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 i would be careful informing others you have benzoic acid, it can be used in the manufacture of benzoyl peroxide based compounds, I'm not sure about America but in NZ they are illegal
nater Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 it is an extremely common chemical, useful as a food preservative, found in medications, even used in chemistry demonstations for young kids...
Potassiumchlorate Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 What's wrong with NZ and Australia? You have worse laws than we have in Europe!
dagabu Posted March 10, 2012 Posted March 10, 2012 i would be careful informing others you have benzoic acid, it can be used in the manufacture of benzoyl peroxide based compounds, I'm not sure about America but in NZ they are illegal Nice Wikki-foo there MMDC, it's not the compounds that are illegal, I am pretty sure you can buy acne cream down under. Benzoyl peroxide (BPO) discussion needs to stay in the HE area IMHO. -dag
Mumbles Posted March 11, 2012 Posted March 11, 2012 What does Benzylpiperazine have anything to do with benzoic acid or your first tangent of benzoyl peroxide? Trying to claim that benzoic acid is a legitimate precursor for BZP is a big stretch at the least.
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