Could one "nitrate" charcoal?

[oldguy]

Wood is composed of cellulose, hemi-cellulose and lignin in varied amounts.

 

The link below contains extensive info on what occurs as wood is charred.

 

http://pubs.usgs.gov/sir/2004/5292/

 

I have “nitrated” both cellulose & microcrystalline cellulose.

 

Hypothetically, I am curious what the effect would be if one attempted to “nitrate” a reactive charcoal?

 

Any of you chemistry “wizards” have any thoughts on the subject?

 

 

[Peret]

Well no, you can't nitrate charcoal. Charcoal is elemental carbon, with a few impurities. There's nothing there to nitrate. You might be able to nitrate the original cellulose.

 

Now if you saturate the charcoal with potassium nitrate solution and dry it well, that's not nitrating it exactly, but you end up with barbecue charcoal you can light with a single match. The nitrate all burns off in a couple of minutes and leaves the charcoal glowing hot.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Peret

[warthog]

Now if you then add sulfur to the KNO₃ soaked charcoal, chuck it into the ball mill, you get black powder still. Isn't this the basis of the CIA method?

[dagabu]

Well no, you can't nitrate charcoal. Charcoal is elemental carbon, with a few impurities. There's nothing there to nitrate. You might be able to nitrate the original cellulose.

 

Now if you saturate the charcoal with potassium nitrate solution and dry it well, that's not nitrating it exactly, but you end up with barbecue charcoal you can light with a single match. The nitrate all burns off in a couple of minutes and leaves the charcoal glowing hot.

 

True, while not chemically not nitrating the carbon, it has been accepted that you are making a more reactive BP by intimately mixing the KNO3 with the carbon using the re-crystallization process.

 

Now if you then add sulfur to the KNO₃ soaked charcoal, chuck it into the ball mill, you get black powder still. Isn't this the basis of the CIA method?

 

No, the CIA method involves alcohol and a lot of wasted chems, oh, and its a mess. Ned Gorskis "charcoal nitration" process involves boiling water with KNO3 and dumping it into charcoal to cool allowing the crystalline structure to reform from within the charcoal lattice. The "nitrated" charcoal and KNO3 is then dried and added to the sulfur and ball milled as normal for making BP or is used wet and mixed with other ingredients for stars, comets and such.

 

It is important to be exact each time it is made or the reactivity will fluctuate wildly. I have made it a few times and it worked well but just throwing everything into the ball mill for an hour is repeatable and easy.

 

-dag

[warthog]

I understand now, never even read up on the CIA method as no one ever recommended it and everyone tells me it is a huge mess. Clean up is the part of this stuff I gate so why would I make it worse by doing something I already know is beyond messy? I wanted to try Ned's version but never got around to it. I am pretty happy with the lift and burst I have no so I am not likely to screw with it. Edited March 8, 2012 by warthog

[oldguy]

It's not for BP.

 

As Dag wisely says, its just to easy/simple to load a BM jar & mill all the BP one could ever want.

 

LOL, I guess I am a "spark" freak.

 

Since I have a vast supply of very reactive charcoal.

 

I have been fooling around a means to screen it to various sizes.

 

Without turning the shop into what appears to be the inside of a coal mine.

 

I built a simple inexpensive shaker table with a small electric motor & eccentric gear.

 

That I can secure a tall stack of nested screens to.

 

Then cover the nested screens with a large plastic bag secured tight at the bottom with a bungee cord.

 

Simply turn it on, let it run 15 minutes & turn it off, let dust settle & carefully remove the cover.

 

Presto change-o screened charcoal without turning myself into an black faced comic character.

 

Fooling around with a mix of -10 +30 mesh sizes.

 

I dissolved some AP, mixed in about 2% -40 + 300 spherical Ti & gave a batch of charcoal a bath in it.

 

Then air dried the charcoal.

 

LOL… that's some wildly sparky charcoal.

 

Now fooling around trying to make AP blue (copper nanodust) charcoal sparks.

Edited March 8, 2012 by oldguy

[warthog]

"Nitrating" it will make it burn faster and that will reduce its ability to make those nice sparks in fountains et al.

 

Is this what you are asking?

 

I wish I lived closer so I could take advantage of all this equipment.

[dagabu]

"Nitrating" it will make it burn faster and that will reduce its ability to make those nice sparks in fountains et al.

 

Is this what you are asking?

 

I wish I lived closer so I could take advantage of all this equipment.

 

No, not really. The 80 mesh charcoal or whatever mesh you decide to include is the charcoal that will make the sparks and that will be added after the comp is ball milled, much like you would add the metals after the ball milling. The ball milled charcoal is just feeding the fuel. That said, if you use unmilled components, 80- mesh charcoal, prilled KNO3, sifted sulfur, whet them and pump the stars, they will burn longer and a lot less fiercely. It's just green meal and is called for in some slower BP comps.

 

-dag

[oldguy]

Another little tidbit I found tinkering around.

 

An acquaintance has an electric single stamp pill press.

 

Don’t let the “single stamp” part fool you.

 

Running perfectly, the little press kicks out a tablets about as fast as you can blink your eyes.

 

We made a stainless steel die for round tablets a bit smaller than a BB.

 

Microcrystalline cellulose will compact under pressure into a hard plastic like mass.

 

It’s the preferred binder in about every pill out there.

 

The MCC powder is also very absorbent.

 

I mixed AP, air flat charcoal (my own) & powder Microcrystalline cellulose in about even parts.

 

Then used about a 50/50 solution of Methanol -Acetone & stirred in the AP, MCC & charcoal.

 

Then air dried the batch & used a mixer to reduce it back to fine powder form.

 

The press knocked out a few hundred BB sized tablets in minutes.

 

They are about as hard as an aspirin.

 

Intent is to use them as star rolling seeds.

 

Have to wait & see how well they work, as I have not completed my star roller machine yet.

 

　

 

　

 

 

[WSM]

Another little tidbit I found tinkering around.

An acquaintance has an electric single stamp pill press.

Don't let the "single stamp" part fool you.

Running perfectly, the little press kicks out a tablets about as fast as you can blink your eyes.

We made a stainless steel die for round tablets a bit smaller than a BB.

Microcrystalline cellulose will compact under pressure into a hard plastic like mass.

It's the preferred binder in about every pill out there.

The MCC powder is also very absorbent.

I mixed AP, air flat charcoal (my own) & powder Microcrystalline cellulose in about even parts.

Then used about a 50/50 solution of Methanol -Acetone & stirred in the AP, MCC & charcoal.

Then air dried the batch & used a mixer to reduce it back to fine powder form.

The press knocked out a few hundred BB sized tablets in minutes.

They are about as hard as an aspirin.

Intent is to use them as star rolling seeds.

Have to wait & see how well they work, as I have not completed my star roller machine yet.

 

That's a very interesting idea. I would have used potassium nitrate or potassium perchlorate (KP) rather than AP (ammonium perchlorate). Is there some particular reason you used AP?

 

WSM

Edited March 9, 2012 by WSM

[oldguy]

That's a very interesting idea. I would have used potassium nitrate or potassium perchlorate (KP) rather than AP (ammonium perchlorate). Is there some particular reason you used AP?

 

WSM

 

Reasoning was AP is no or low smoke.

ASAP, I plan to make other batches with KN03 and another with KP.

[WSM]

Reasoning was AP is no or low smoke.

ASAP, I plan to make other batches with KN03 and another with KP.

 

An interesting thought. I once (in the '80's) tried a small rocket (1/4" bore, core-burn) with AP/charcoal, 80:20, and got an interesting chuffing motor that looked like an amber strobe effect as it flew. The AP was 200 micron and the charcoal was commercial airfloat. I flew it at night so can't tell whether it had less smoke or not.

 

WSM

[Peret]

I made powder once by the Shimuzu "wet method", which is not exactly the CIA method but involved mixing the charcoal with boiling KNO3 solution. Never again, it was too messy and no better than dry milled.

 

When I wrote about soaking the charcoal above to make match light, that was with very much less nitrate than it would need for powder. Powder needs mixing the charcoal with five times its own weight of nitrate. On its own, it can only take up about ten percent.

[WSM]

I made powder once by the Shimuzu "wet method", which is not exactly the CIA method but involved mixing the charcoal with boiling KNO3 solution. Never again, it was too messy and no better than dry milled.

When I wrote about soaking the charcoal above to make match light, that was with very much less nitrate than it would need for powder. Powder needs mixing the charcoal with five times its own weight of nitrate. On its own, it can only take up about ten percent.

 

I like it, though, Imagine the barbeque being cook-ready in a third the time?! A great idea for those hungry Summer evenings... (There are other uses for charcoal after all... )

 

WSM