FlaMtnBkr Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Has anyone tried substituting something for the HCE in HC smoke? HCE is C2Cl6 so it is mainly adding chlorine to the burn. I tried subbing parlon 1:1 and it did smoke pretty good but hard to tell if it was as much smoke as the real thing. I have searched a lot and haven't found any suggestions for a replacement. Just thought I would ask here. Thanks!
Mumbles Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 I found this in what used to be Wouter Visser's database. Kind of as I suspected, you need to use a lot more chlorine donor to balance out the high chlorine content of HCE. It makes Zinc Chloride, which reacts with water in the air to make an extremely dense fog as it hydrates, though it has quite a bit of smoke even without that. You could maybe use the 72:45 ratio to start replacing things. That is approximately a 1:1 chlorine replacement. It'd be 55.5 parts saran and 60.5 parts parlon if you follow the convention they used for PVC. Smoke composition #2Source: rec.pyrotechnics (composition is an U.S. military smoke composition)Comments: The mixture is difficult to ignite. Hexachloroethane is poisonous, and can be replaced by 72 parts PVC. This, however, makes the mixture yet harder to ignite. The zinc oxide can be replaced by titanium dioxide (2 parts ZnO replaced by 1 part TiO2). The smoke is slightly irritating and not suitable for indoor use.Preparation: Zinc oxide........................................45Hexachloroethane..................................45Aluminum..........................................10
pyrojig Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Are you saying a mixture of : 72 pvc22.5 Ti dioxide 10 Al Would sub for the HC mix stated above ?
Mumbles Posted February 22, 2012 Posted February 22, 2012 Allegedly. Just posting the information that I found to try to get moving in the right direction.
FlaMtnBkr Posted February 23, 2012 Author Posted February 23, 2012 Thanks Mumbles. That was the type of info I had searched for but didn't turn anything up. I figured another chlorine donor would work but wasn't sure since no one has really talked about it. I guess I will try to do some tests and see how the smoke output compares with the real deal. The parlon seemed to work pretty good though. Is there a reason HCE isn't used as a chlorine donor more often? I know it can sublime but I don't think it does so very quickly at room temperature. Just wondering.
WSM Posted February 24, 2012 Posted February 24, 2012 Thanks Mumbles. That was the type of info I had searched for but didn't turn anything up. I figured another chlorine donor would work but wasn't sure since no one has really talked about it. I guess I will try to do some tests and see how the smoke output compares with the real deal. The parlon seemed to work pretty good though.Is there a reason HCE isn't used as a chlorine donor more often? I know it can sublime but I don't think it does so very quickly at room temperature. Just wondering. Because it sublimes, it's hard to store. If you can't store it easily it's uses are limited. Because it sublimes it creates a vapor pressure (another problem). If not for it's problems, it would be a great chlorine donor. WSM
pyrojig Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Because it sublimes, it's hard to store. If you can't store it easily it's uses are limited. Because it sublimes it creates a vapor pressure (another problem). If not for it's problems, it would be a great chlorine donor. WSM I had similar experience with trying to store the stuff. Even in double sealed bags it can be smelled and somehow sublimes. Just out of curiosity, is the smoke produced toxic or just more so a irritant . I was always under the impression it was more on the lines of toxic. Im sure HCE itself is toxic, and not something you'd want to snack on.
Short5 Posted February 25, 2012 Posted February 25, 2012 Toxic. I forget where I read it but it has, among other things, phosgene gas in the smoke. A good breath of it in the open is choking and I imagine terrible with confinement indoors or if you got a thick breath of it. A little exposure is not going to kill you but it's not good for you. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/832708-overview
FlaMtnBkr Posted February 25, 2012 Author Posted February 25, 2012 Out of curiosity if HCE is used in something like a 'rubber' star that uses parlon dissolved in acetone, will it 'lock' the HCE in the star and not sublime out? I know that wouldn't make sense because parlon is a chlorine donor but I'm just curious if it is possible. Or maybe if used in something with a high percentage of NC, like 10% solid loading.
pyrojig Posted February 26, 2012 Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Its a good Q. Lots of pyros mix chlorine donors (such as pvc and saran etc) to dial in the fuel and chlorine provided to a mixture. Im no expert , but in the case of rubber stars I think your odds of loss are minimal.I would not consider storing them for several years either . I believe they did away with the HCE as a chlorine donor(for stars) for the toxic nature and subliming. Edited February 26, 2012 by pyrojig
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