Flash Powders - Different Oxidizers & Metals

[pyrokid]

There are pages of information about proper use of flash on this forum. It is an excellent resource. I submit that if you are too stupid to find this information, you have no business working with flash in the first place. I feel like some people just visit forums to get offended anyway.

[FlaMtnBkr]

That's the way APC Forum is. I've been told by many people discussing Flash elsewhere. They "school" everyone on Flash that asks about it and it boosts their self-esteem for being a moderator. I've pointed out before that it would make sense to provide correct information on how to make and handle Flash safely rather than let a person find out on youtube.

How is that the way APC is when he got scolded by every person for self moderating?

 

Yeah if you ask a stupid question and it's obvious you know nothing of pyro and haven't done any work to find good information then you will probably be told you aren't ready for flash. Which is most likely true.

 

The great thing about the internet, if anyone doesn't like the website they are at, all they have to do is leave and never go back.

[OblivionFall]

How is that the way APC is when he got scolded by every person for self moderating?

Yeah if you ask a stupid question and it's obvious you know nothing of pyro and haven't done any work to find good information then you will probably be told you aren't ready for flash. Which is most likely true.

The great thing about the internet, if anyone doesn't like the website they are at, all they have to do is leave and never go back.

From what I can take from the title, it seems like a fairly educated question. Inquiring about different metals, oxodizers and the effect they have on flash is reasonable.

[Mumbles]

As I said in post 21, I had seen this post in it's entirety and did not find it really overly stupid, offensive, or against the rules. By this point however the original post had been removed, and the original poster had unfortunately gone on his way. I did reach out to him privately to apologize for what happened in this thread, and make a point that NightHawkInLight did not have the authority or permission to act like he did. Some members do get over zealous from time to time with how much authority they think they have, or at least handle situations differently than I would. I do my best to handle these sorts of situations with the offending member to try to prevent others from being driven away or put off by the actions of rogue members. There are only 2 admins here, and if we find a thread to be not up to our standards or rules, we will take care of deleting, locking, or pruning it. We can't be here 24/7, and do appreciate some of the more senior members stepping in from time to time and advising people if it is obvious that there is a clear safety or knowledge issue at hand. If there is anything extreme or outrageous, people know how to alert us outside of the forum that it rarely becomes an issue.

 

As for APC's reputation in communities of kewls and boomers, I for one will not be losing any sleep over that.

[MrB]

As for APC's reputation in communities of kewls and boomers, I for one will not be losing any sleep over that.

But... but... but... I love APC. Cant i be kewl?

 

Joking aside... This forum keeps a fairly strict "learn a bare minimum before you ask stupid questions" policy, and posters not aware, and stumbling in to the zone often gets a rude awakening. Personalty i much rather help these guys, so that they don't blow property, and body-parts apart unintentionally. Some people cant be helped, we have had those here to, but most people do take suggestions, and end up being a safer pyro as a result. I much prefer that result over then heading to a kewl boomer site, and getting all the advice they needed to blow them self up. So i tend to give "help" where possible as long as i can keep my self out of liability...

B!

[Shunt]

+1 Mumbles

 

"There are only 2 admins here, and if we find a thread to be not up to our standards or rules, we will take care of deleting, locking, or pruning it. We can't be here 24/7, and do appreciate some of the more senior members stepping in from time to time and advising people if it is obvious that there is a clear safety or knowledge issue at hand."

 

I also think is wise to allow senior members who see a post that is clearly an accident about to happen, put on their 'safety officer' cap and steer the OP out of harms way till the admin's can take the proper action.

 

Nothing is worse then a wannabe moderator in forums... I found this forum due to the post about various metal/oxidizer substitutions in flash powders drawing this forum up on the search engine. Instead of finding useful information I was disgusted by nighthawklightintheloafers whining. If I were the moderator I would instantly ax members that rape topics then try to make the rest of the members pray to God he gets colon cancer and dies just so they never have to read another post! Nobody needs you to explain yourself either, it's obvious you endured many years of Saudi bachelor party style abuse from a poly addicted uncle as that is the only scenario that could produce such a huge A-hole! Now back to searching for color educing oxidizer/metal substitutions/additions for flash powders elsewhere as I would rather not chance reading one more word from that foul being.

 

As for the above quote... anyone who uses words such as those on our forum lacks the maturity for even simple interpersonal relationships, much less asking about flash.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Shunt

[Tabun]

Any suggestions for a general purpose flash powder?By "GP" I mean a composition which can be used in both firecrackers and fireworks,which won't be very powerful nor very weak,one which doesn't need to be very loud but nor too "silent" and which is relatively safe to work with.

[mikeee]

Tabun,

 

Black Powder is the go to comp for all around multi-purpose use in making fireworks.

Firecrackers, fountains, stars, comets, rockets etc.

One of the most versatile compounds we work with.

[MrB]

Black Powder is the go to comp for all around multi-purpose use in making fireworks.

 

Indeed, for what he describes, it's BP thats the perfect fit. Well, aside from the "not very powerful" part, i suppose.

B!

[Shunt]

Tabun,

 

Black Powder is the go to comp for all around multi-purpose use in making fireworks.

Firecrackers, fountains, stars, comets, rockets etc.

One of the most versatile compounds we work with.

 

Flash on the other hand, can cost you a hand or your life in the blink of an eye.

 

I suggest you read the topics in the 'safety' section of the forum over and over again, and start with Black Powder.

[mikeee]

There was a news article posted on one of the other Fireworks websites a week ago

about a young man in Florida who lost both of his arms from the elbow down while

making a "fireworks" compound in his apartment. The individual was using a coffee

grinder to mix/grind a compound and it exploded in his hands. Some of the high energy

compounds are very lethal in small quantities. He most likely did not understand the

hazards of the compound he was working with. Some compounds are sensitive to static

charges, friction, shock, heat, sun light, moisture, other chemicals etc. Anytime you

work with a new compound you want to read as much as possible about the chemicals used

and the proper methods used to process the compound safely.

 

There really is no safe flash powder (high energy) material to make/use. Each type of

compound has different hazards and risks when processing and using.

[GMetcalf]

I have no idea what experience you have with high energy compounds like Flash and Whistle so no idea what you'd take to be 'too' high energy. The reason 70% Potassium Perchlorate, 30% Dark Aluminium is the most commonly used Flash Powder is because it effectively ticks all the boxes you ask for. It's not overly sensitive (note, it is still sensitive and must be treated with respect and caution) and makes a nice sound. If you have experience working with Flash Powder then that's the way to go. If you'd prefer to not use Potassium Perchlorate (or simply can't get hold of it) then Potassium Nitrate based Flash Powder is also an option and works just as well as classical Flash Powder and is even a tad bit less friction/shock sensitive. 50% Potassium Nitrate, 25% Sulphur, 25% Dark Aluminium is the formula I use but there are quite a few variations you'll see people quote, I expect they'll all give similar results. However (and this is a big however mind you), it needs to be dry, as in no water at all, and you are probably best off adding a couple of percent Boric Acid to the mix because Nitrate and Aluminium in solution can cause an exothermic reaction which will ruin your week/month/year (depending how much Flash you've made).

 

I know it's everywhere else to do with Pyrotechnics on the web but I might as well restate it again: Flash Powder is very sensitive so use adequate PPE when handling it. Do not make more than you need. Because Flash is friction sensitive and static sensitive you should only mix it on paper and de-static your work surface before beginning. For me this involves splashing water about the place and spraying everything (including myself) with anti-static spray. Even then I'm still always a bit tetchy when I make Flash because it's still dangerous.

 

If however, you don't fancy the faff of doing so then as everyone else has pointed out, you can always make a good bang with some powerful Black Powder, as hot as you can make it, granulated fine (say through a 10 mesh screen). I use Black Powder for larger reports and only reserve Flash for smaller inserts etc. simply because if I don't need to have large quantities of Flash sitting around then why risk it.

 

As with all Pyrotechnics, it's about balancing the risk and benefit of what you're doing. But my advice would be if you want loud firecrackers/small reports, use Flash. Otherwise some finely granulated hot Black Powder, maybe with some added Titanium for coloured sparks, will do perfectly and won't leave you disappointed!

[jordanm]

Is this the formula for slow flash used to break shells:

50% Potassium Nitrate, 25% Sulphur, 25% Dark Aluminium

 

Black powder has an excellent report when confined. Without confining it however is is just a puff of smoke.

[GMetcalf]

There are various formulae used for "slow" Flash Powder, the slow is in quotations because there's nothing slow about it, it's still Flash and still packs a substantial punch. The most common are:

50% Potassium Nitrate

25% Dark Aluminium

25% Sulphur

and (this is the one I use):

50% Potassium Nitrate

30% Dark Aluminium

20% Sulphur

But I've also seen:

60% Potassium Nitrate

30% Dark Aluminium

10% Sulphur

Remember to add some Boric Acid, maybe 2%, to prevent basic conditions and the development of some issues you'd rather not have. I tend to mill it in with the Potassium Nitrate to make sure it's evenly spread throughout the mix.

 

Edit: I should add; DO NOT mill the entire composition - I'm talking about milling ONLY the Potassium Nitrate and Boric Acid. NEVER mill oxidisers and fuels together apart from Black Powder.

Edited June 8, 2015 by GMetcalf

[Wiley]

I have personally mixed pounds of nitrate report comp without incident, but the reminder about the nitrate/Al reaction got me worried about the mix's longevity. What I use specifically is 2:1:1 kno3:sulfur:5413. Now, that's about the finest aluminum available to us, so it also has the greatest potential to react in a very bad way with the nitrate. Is there legitimate cause for concern with this mix, and if so, does the boric acid actually fix the problem?

[Strannik]

I such compositions pelletized in a NC lacquer through a sieve of 0.75 mm. For more than 75 mm projectiles such composition is applied to the rice husk alcohol resin. Good part magnalium add 5%.

[nater]

Are you dampening that mix with water? It should be fine dry.

[mohammacl]

please sb tell me what is defect of KMnO4 + Al exacly ?

[schroedinger]

Permanganat flash can ignite by itself.

[schroedinger]

The reaction of nitrate and al needs water to happen.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Doesn't it also need a base with the water to create a damp basic environment? Isn't there usually baking soda or sodium oxalate present when a reaction happens?

 

I've never had an issue so I don't recall exactly the reaction. I remember Mike Swisher also saying he hasn't had a problem except when using lots of flake aluminum (20% +) and an oxalate. At least I'm fairly sure that's what he has said a few times.

[nater]

It has been noted that some batches of KNO3 are more alkaline than others. I also recall Mike Swisher stating this reaction was more common when on oxalate is involved, but sodium bicarbonate can be just as bad. He has also said the flake aluminum contributes due to its high surface area.

[schroedinger]

No it doesn't need it, but a base greatly increases the reaction speed.

The reason for this is, that Al forms a base if combined with water
The bigger the surface, the faster this happens. Al2O3 is the top layer of all aluminium surfaces. It isn't stable against a basic enviroment and decomposes. Tne big problem with this reaction is, that it is autocatalitic, speeding up itself as it regenrates andd generates base itself.
In combination with the present nitrate it gets more worse, since the nitrate can be reduced into ammonia. That reaction is speeded up, since the base is needed for an electron transport during the reaction.

Now if you look at raten constants of those reactions, you will find that you need quite a lot of surface (usable Al) if you have no base present. The constants are much higher if you have a base present. In an acidic enviroment, the aurocatalitic part is surpressed and aluminum is more ressistant to acid, then to bases in general (but not too kuch, anything stronger then boric axid is capable of attacking it).

[Mumbles]

That post is so full of half-truths I'm not even sure where to start. However, if I were you, I'd start with a spell checker and a chemistry book.

 

You do in fact technically need a base.

8Al + 3NO3(-) + 5OH(-) + 18H2O --> 8Al(OH)4(-) + 3NH3

 

The reaction of water and aluminum is not autocatalytic (note the spelling) as you suggest. If anything, it slows itself over time as the surface passivates. It does not continue to generate base, and dissolve itself. Even if in basic solution, the reaction also does not auto-catalyze itself due to more dissolved aluminum. The solution will actually get somewhat less basic due to the OH- ions being consumed to form tetrahydroxoaluminate.

 

The biggest self-accelerating aspect of this reaction is the heat generated. As the composition heats up, it in turn goes more rapidly. It actually uses more base than the ammonia formed can generate. External base is still required for the reaction to keep going. The ammonia does regenerate some of the consumed hydroxide though.

 

The base, in addition to being an integral part of the reaction, also dissolves the passivating layer of the aluminum constantly exposing fresh Al to water, nitrate, and other things that attack it.

 

 

 

No it doesn't need it, but a base greatly increases the reaction speed.

The reason for this is, that Al forms a base if combined with water
The bigger the surface, the faster this happens. Al2O3 is the top layer of all aluminium surfaces. It isn't stable against a basic enviroment and decomposes. Tne big problem with this reaction is, that it is autocatalitic, speeding up itself as it regenrates andd generates base itself.
In combination with the present nitrate it gets more worse, since the nitrate can be reduced into ammonia. That reaction is speeded up, since the base is needed for an electron transport during the reaction.

Now if you look at raten constants of those reactions, you will find that you need quite a lot of surface (usable Al) if you have no base present. The constants are much higher if you have a base present. In an acidic enviroment, the aurocatalitic part is surpressed and aluminum is more ressistant to acid, then to bases in general (but not too kuch, anything stronger then boric axid is capable of attacking it).

[OblivionFall]

There are various formulae used for "slow" Flash Powder, the slow is in quotations because there's nothing slow about it, it's still Flash and still packs a substantial punch. The most common are:

50% Potassium Nitrate

25% Dark Aluminium

25% Sulphur

and (this is the one I use):

50% Potassium Nitrate

30% Dark Aluminium

20% Sulphur

But I've also seen:

60% Potassium Nitrate

30% Dark Aluminium

10% Sulphur

Remember to add some Boric Acid, maybe 2%, to prevent basic conditions and the development of some issues you'd rather not have. I tend to mill it in with the Potassium Nitrate to make sure it's evenly spread throughout the mix.

 

Edit: I should add; DO NOT mill the entire composition - I'm talking about milling ONLY the Potassium Nitrate and Boric Acid. NEVER mill oxidisers and fuels together apart from Black Powder.

I've heard that people mill KNO3 and Sulfur together, is this a good idea?