PyroAce Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 This question has probably been asked before (I did try a search):What are the risks of using Meal powder (that contains Sulfur) to prime stars that contain Potassium Perchlorate? As we know Sulfur is risky when used with Potassium Perchlorate (and even more so when sued with Potassium Chlorate), I have used Meal Powder prime on Perchlorate based stars with no problems before, and a many reputable formulas recommend a Meal powder prime even though the same literature lists Potassium Perchlorate and Sulfur as incompatible, what are the real risks? Are we better off just using a Sulfurless prime?
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 What literature does that? That literature is wrong.
FlaMtnBkr Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 You should be fine mixing perchlorate and sulfur, especially when the sulfur is only contained in a prime.
Peret Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Perc is somewhat sensitive with sulfur and sulfides, but nowhere near as much as chlorate. I wouldn't mix perchlorate and sulfur in a star personally, but I have no qualms about priming with regular BP.
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 If potassium perchlorate was dangerous with sulfur, they wouldn't make KP burst. Of course potassium perchlorate is compatible with sulfur.
Mumbles Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Sulfur most certainly sensitizes perchlorates, as it does with chlorates. It's one of those things I think you really need to experience for yourself to really have a good understanding of it. Just mix a small pile of perchlorate and sulfur together. Test it for friction and impact. It will go off from both. It takes more force than with chlorates.
pyrokid Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Sulfur most certainly sensitizes perchlorates, as it does with chlorates. It's one of those things I think you really need to experience for yourself to really have a good understanding of it. Just mix a small pile of perchlorate and sulfur together. Test it for friction and impact. It will go off from both. It takes more force than with chlorates. Hey Mumbles, would you call mixing the two an unreasonably dangerous practice? I have always wondered about this myself, because I know some guys like to add some sulfur to their flash powder.
FlaMtnBkr Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 As mentioned, mix the 2 together and test for yourself. It's good to do if you question the sensitivity of something to find out for yourself what kind of mishandling it takes for a reaction. I have put a mix of the 2 on a steel plate and rubbed and hit the pile with a hammer. I didn't have anything happen when I rubbed the pile and didn't have much happen with a sharp smack. I didn't hear or see anything when hitting a pile but after a hard hit there was a slight burnt match smell though I didn't see any smoke. Hitting it knocks the pile away so a piece of tape helps keep the pile in place for repeated hits. It convinced me it isn't all that sensitive. Also, make sure to not use acidic sulfur. Buy from a pyro vendor or use rubber makers sulfur and not flowers of sulfur. Some ph test strips are good to keep around to know if something is acidic or basic.
pyrojig Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I dont think 70-30 flash needs any extra help for power. It ( sulfur) is valuable for star comps. and other mix's. Id just suggest leaving it out of flash. Why sensitize a mix that is already powerful and sensitive to start with. @FlaMtnBkr Your tests are inadequate. Mumbles is correct. Flash is impact sensitive and slightly friction sensitive as well, even more so with the addition of sulfur. It is best to do a test by wrapping a small sample in AL foil, then hammering it over steel. it is important to get a steel to steel contact . I wouldnt call it a death mix ( with sulfur), but it is unnecessary. AS stated, todays sulfur is High Quality, and a lot of the old tales dont apply anymore. BUT>>>> that doesnt mean to not respect it.
Mumbles Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Even after doing the tests myself I am still completely willing to mix perchlorate and sulfur for things like primes and bursts. That said it is still something that needs to be respected. Grinding the mix in a mortar and pestle will make little snaps without a great deal of effort. It takes more force than with chlorate and sulfur, but perhaps not that much more than one might expect. The same is true for the impact. It's more force than it may accidentally be subjected to, but it's something good to have in mind.
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) Sulfur most certainly sensitizes perchlorates, as it does with chlorates. It's one of those things I think you really need to experience for yourself to really have a good understanding of it. Just mix a small pile of perchlorate and sulfur together. Test it for friction and impact. It will go off from both. It takes more force than with chlorates. I know. What I meant was that a completely spontaneous reaction between the two is as good as impossible. It's not even sure that really pure chlorates and really pure sulfur could react spontaneously with each other, at least as long as there is no considerable amount of water present to form sulfuric acid. Edited February 15, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate
FREAKYDUTCHMEN Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 It's absolutely not dangerous to use perchlorates and sulfur together in stars or in burst charges like "potassumchlorate" alreay said.Think about KP burst charges and there are more burstcharges used with perchlorate and sulfur. Many color star primes I know are primed with blackpowder based primes.The Maltese even uses blackpowder to prime their chlorate stars/comets, yes some accidents happened over there but they make 100.000 times more than we do.
FlaMtnBkr Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Not to be a smartass, but how is wrapping it in aluminum foil going to get steel on steel contact? I smacked many piles of the mixture with a hammer which gave as much steel on steel contact as I can do. The piece of tape was just suggested to keep more of the mix in one place. Each time you hit a pile the force disperses the pile. My steel plate was even a little rusty which adds friction and I would think increases sensitivity. I was also only relaying the results of what I did with the chemicals that I have. Maybe my perchlorate is more coarse and less reactive. That's why I suggested testing for yourself, with the chemicals you own, so you have an idea of what it takes to have a reaction. I didn't say (nor mean to imply) it should not be respected. Any energetic material should be respected. Certainly one that will react from outside forces. But it's not a sensitive primary explosive either. The two can be safely used together as long as you give it some respect. I dont think 70-30 flash needs any extra help for power. It ( sulfur) is valuable for star comps. and other mix's. Id just suggest leaving it out of flash. Why sensitize a mix that is already powerful and sensitive to start with. @FlaMtnBkr Your tests are inadequate. Mumbles is correct. Flash is impact sensitive and slightly friction sensitive as well, even more so with the addition of sulfur. It is best to do a test by wrapping a small sample in AL foil, then hammering it over steel. it is important to get a steel to steel contact . I wouldnt call it a death mix ( with sulfur), but it is unnecessary. AS stated, todays sulfur is High Quality, and a lot of the old tales dont apply anymore. BUT>>>> that doesnt mean to not respect it.
marks265 Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I've milled a good many kilo's of KP burst. Have not had an oops yet.
PyroAce Posted February 18, 2012 Author Posted February 18, 2012 Thank you everyone for the replies, its appreciated
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 I've milled a good many kilo's of KP burst. Have not had an oops yet. So it's even possible to mill it? That'd be the best way to integrate it, just like BP.
fredhappy Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I've milled a good many kilo's of KP burst. Have not had an oops yet. I personally would never mill KP., nor would I advocate doing this. I dominantly use KP on hulls as a breakcharge, and have always found it to be sufficiently powerfull after screening the mixture 4 times through a 80 mesh screen. If you really want to use your ballmill for this mixture, I'd ballmill the sulphur and C, and screen in the KCLO4 afterwards. Screened KP has more then enough power for use as a breakcharge , and that power can be ramped up even more by pasting your shells with quite a few layers paper . It does not rely as much on intimate mixing through ballmilling as mealpowder does. It relies on pasting and sufficient containment. I do not feel ballmilling would add anything, apart from the big no no of milling sulphur, a fuel and KCLO4 together mechanically. Why do you choose to mill your KP? Edited February 18, 2012 by fredhappy
marks265 Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 I would not suggest the method either. I just know that I have done it. I had some KP that was a little coarser grained so I thought I would try it. I was growing less happy with my mill set up at the time so I made a few batches to see what would happen. I just redid my mill a couple of weeks ago so now I like the mill and won't be milling KP again. Mark
pyrojig Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 @FlaMtnBkrThe foil is only for containment nothing more . There still needs to be a steel to steel contact to effectively impact test it. I too agree on not milling Kp. with sulfur. Why take a chance and find out the hard way?
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