warthog Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 This is not a condemnation of the practice. In fact I have lit off a few pounds of aluminum/iron thermite myself with both red and black iron oxides so that I could compare the differences in heat generated. I am also aware that there are many types of thermite reactions that are used in pyrotechnics. Further there are many different types of thermite with different components. That really isn't what I am asking about here though. This is also brought on by the recent eBay review though not an indictment of that person or those people involved in the thread. (why do you always feel like you have to say all of this to try and avoid the whole "You are attacking me" mentality?)(I am just as guilty of feeling it so I guess I don't know either) ANYWAY, what is the fascination with thermite? Are any of you welding or using to to cut steel? Are you simply setting it off for fun like I basically did the first time until I realized there is a difference between the two different oxide states and wanted to see just how much it was? I ask because like excessive use of flash, it seems to me that excessive use of thermite, which has a military connotation, can also have a detrimental effect to the hobby. I am aware that the thermite used in military applications is not usually the Al/Iron Oxide variety however the word itself invokes certain feelings to those not in the know. It has a sort of K3WL feel to it if done to excess. Again, it is not my intent to agitate here, I am simply wondering what messing with thermite alone has to do with pyrotechnics? Simply lighting the stuff off is not the same as mixing up a formulae for something that involves a thermite reaction to produce a desired pyrotechnic effect, it is simply a k3wl sort of thing to do IN MY OPINION ALONE AT THIS TIME. What I am seeking is some sort of reason beyond that sort of behavior for wanting to make pounds and pounds of the stuff. Anyone want to help me with this? let the lambasting begin!
optimus Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 It's a fascinating, inspirational, spectacular reaction which I hope would help enthuse the next generation of chemists. If the schools still do this demo? I still remember my first thermite demo while in school and how inspired I was by it. I don't really think its use has a negative impact on the hobby in the same way as flash, can't remember hearing any media reports of misuse of thermite, certainly not on the same scale as kids messing with sparkler b0mbs and destructive use of flash. Personally I've never made large amounts or melted anything spectacular, but I still want to do some more tests with CuO/Mg as it is a unique effect - molten globules of Cu flying around at dusk look really, really cool
Nessalco Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I've made thermite for two purposes. First was helping to crack pieces off large rocks buried in my driveway - it was moderately effective for that, though in the long run I had better luck just building a big hardwood fire. The second use is for lighting large APCP motors, using cupric thermite. Gram amounts are necessary there. Beyond that, I'll admit that I made it a couple times just to 'check it out', and to test igniters. Haven't made any for a couple years. Kevin
OneEyeCharlie Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I basically second what Optimus said. Regular middle/high school science classes have become so tame, that you virtually need a Kevlar vest & full face shield to mix vinegar and baking soda. I've mixed up and lit batches of thermite for my 13 yr old and his friends (along with KCLO3 + Sugar - tiny drop of H2SO4). This leads to talks about oxidizers (and their various uses, including the space industry), exothermic reactions, etc. It's a dramatic and fun way to make science exciting without bringing down the heat of Johnny Law that 70/30 might. On a purely self-serving, visceral level... the little kid in me still finds it damn fun. You can go Zen and try to find the perfect amounts of a chlorine donor for a star comp, but it's still a riot to burn, melt, and destroy things occasionally.
warthog Posted February 15, 2012 Author Posted February 15, 2012 I am not seeing this as a science thing for school. Else I would whole heartedly second what is said, I loved science because of all the dangerous things we got to do in it back in the day and went on to get myself a science degree in college. I would love it if this was why it was being done. I also think the reasons that Nessalco gave were valid, those had a purpose other than destruction. However should you just want to melt things, how then does this differ from wanting to blow it up with flash? This is a devil's advocate sort of argument, I am all for letting everyone do as they please in fact as long as it doesn't infringe on others abilities to do same nor cause harm. I think you'd find my politics pretty darn conservative where it comes to government regulation as well. I merely seek some sort of reason for wanting to make piles of thermite just to make it and burn things up with it. Destruction for its own sake isn't as fun to me as it must be to others I guess.
anapogeetoofar Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 However should you just want to melt things, how then does this differ from wanting to blow it up with flash? Do you honestly not see the difference between blowing up a microwave with a flash bomb and melting a hole in it with thermite? Aside from the obvious regulatory differences, and the way society perceives them, they're completely different phenomena aside from the fact that they're both Redox reactions. I merely seek some sort of reason for wanting to make piles of thermite just to make it and burn things up with it Why?
FrankRizzo Posted February 16, 2012 Posted February 16, 2012 I'd be willing to bet that most people hear the hyped-up, "It will cut through an engine block" type stuff, and want to experiment with it because of the relative ease of finding the reactants. After they mess around with it for a while, figure out that the physics of heat conduction won't allow it to do what's claimed, they move on. The more inquisitive folks try more exotic Goldschmidt reactions that result in neater products.
warthog Posted February 16, 2012 Author Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) anapogeetoofar, even your name suggests excess. I believe I stated why I am asking these questions already. No, I do not see the difference in simply destroying things for the sake of destruction no matter the means, even that which has ceased to function. However, I am starting to understand the motive behind the Thermite Phenomenon as I shall refer to it. Thank you all for the replies. Edited February 17, 2012 by warthog
anapogeetoofar Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 No, I do not see the difference in simply destroying things for the sake of destruction no matter the mans, even that which has ceased to function. I don't understand why people put ridiculous rims and hydraulics on Lincoln town cars, but I don't feel the need to make a post on the internet about it. As it turns out, some people actually like different things then I do, probably because they're different people. I asked "why" because I wanted to know why you need people to have some sort of concrete reasoning for wanting to do something. Some people just enjoy certain things, and as long as they don't impede on the rights of others, I don't care. All the time people feel the need to argue with me about me finding enjoyment in building rockets and fireworks because "they don't understand".anapogeetoofar, even your name suggests excess. It "suggests" nothing, but the presumed condescension and sarcasm is appreciated, and quite constructive. Oh, and, FYI: one of my favorite movies is a classic called "A bridge too far", that's where the name comes from. Kinda Ironic you would suggest it implies "excess", considering the movie is about prisoners of war living in squalor as slave laborers. You should watch it sometime, it's an excellent film. And in case you were wondering, no, I don't play with thermite. Where I live, rubbing two blades of grass together will burn half the state down, so molten metal flying about is a bad idea. Besides, If I want lots of fire and smoke and sparks, I'll make a fountain. Or a rocket will make itself into one for me.
warthog Posted February 17, 2012 Author Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I was only asking and if the subject is offensive, don't read it nor should you feel compelled to reply. I find the whole car thing ridiculous and a lot of folks spend time posting about it on the internet. I just don't read it nor do I let it bother me. Why should you worry about what I post and don't post, I do as I please and you should do so as well. Oh, I saw the movie of which you speak in the theater. Do you think that was all the movie was about, really? I believe though the answer has been given me and I applaud those who are using it to further spark the young to take part in the sciences. Those who use it for a reason, igniting a rocket or removing debris, cutting and welding etc, by all means you didn't even fall under the aegises of my query. I only wondered what the fascination was with wanton destruction using thermite as the means. I will continue to attribute to the same reasons I did things like it when I was young, youthful curiosity of just how far a boundary can be pushed. A valid reason it is not but it certainly is one that I both understand and can see as necessary for one's growth. I am still guilty of the pleasure of simply breaking something to see if I can so why not do it with thermite. Just keep in mind that I am not as likely as some to video it and put it on YouTube for the world to see. If you all are not able to see that sort of thing as detrimental to the hobby, just as it is hen folks are blowing the snot out of something with a flash bomb, then I guess that is just how it is going to be. BTW, you may all continue to discuss this or not, I now think I have my answer so I do thank those who participated. I see no reason to continue on with the whole "too far" issue either. I am sorry if that offended you but without some sort of introduction, how does a person know what a name might imply? I just took it the way "too far" is generally taken, nothing more. Edited February 18, 2012 by warthog
Arthur Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Maybe it's a pyro thig you can do without sending shockwaves across the neighbourhood A typical aluminium thermite is hot and smokey but doesn't bang like flash! Play thermite and I get smoke, Play with flash and I get the police looking for the bang.
SB15 Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 (edited) I only wondered what the fascination was with wanton destruction using thermite as the means. Thermite is a simple, inexpensive and spectacular means of creating destruction, so it's heavily favoured by k3wls who just want a quick thrill before they go back to playing video games or whatever. There's no real secret here. Just keep in mind that I am not as likely as some to video it and put it on YouTube for the world to see. If you all are not able to see that sort of thing as detrimental to the hobby, just as it is hen folks are blowing the snot out of something with a flash bomb, then I guess that is just how it is going to be. I don't see such videos as being any more of a concern than those showcasing 'pure' pyrotechnics, unless of course they portray dangerous procedures that are likely to result in injury or death. Very few people outside this hobby are likely to make the distinction between a flash powder salute and a large aerial shell, just as they're not likely to note the difference between someone testing a small amount of star composition and a pile of thermite burning. If you want to accuse someone/something of being detrimental to amateur pyrotechnics, look no further than media sensationalism and public paranoia/ignorance. Both are far, far more significant problems than some teenage YouTube users messing around with redox reactions. Edited February 18, 2012 by SB15
RogueSwimmer Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 CuO thermite is a great noise maker. Fe2O3 thermite is fun to burn through plated steel withMnO2 thermite has a beautiful burn to it and also useful for cutting steel. There is also an HE application of thermite, but most of you wouldn't know anything about it nor would be able to do anything with it.
JFeve81 Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Maybe it's a pyro thig you can do without sending shockwaves across the neighbourhood A typical aluminium thermite is hot and smokey but doesn't bang like flash! Play thermite and I get smoke, Play with flash and I get the police looking for the bang. Thermite can make a big bang. I've sure everyone here has seen at least one video of the thermite and ice explosions. You can find them on YouTube as well as one of the Mythbusters shows.
usapyro Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) By warthogs reasoning pyrotechnics is completely pointless and should be banned. What the heck is the point of sending dangerous flaming exploding objects into the sky? Completely pointless... Ban it ban it ban it!!! Douchebag... I could just see you trying to argue for the illegalization of guns and sports cars too. I bet warhog is a communist spy! Edited February 19, 2012 by usapyro 1
usapyro Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Secondary HE + thermite thermal shock and metallic confinement I am guessing. There is also an HE application of thermite, but most of you wouldn't know anything about it nor would be able to do anything with it. Edited February 19, 2012 by usapyro
optimus Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 I am not seeing this as a science thing for school. Else I would whole heartedly second what is said, I loved science because of all the dangerous things we got to do in it back in the day and went on to get myself a science degree in college. I would love it if this was why it was being done. However should you just want to melt things, how then does this differ from wanting to blow it up with flash? Not sure what you mean by "I am not seeing this as a science thing for school". Thermite is very much a 'science thing' wouldn't you say? Obviously melting things with thermite is very different from blowing things up with flash. Mixing/lighting small amounts of thermite can be done completely legally in the UK, the same can be said for flash but as soon as you make a functioning device you are asking for trouble.
warthog Posted February 19, 2012 Author Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Do any of you read the whole posts I make or do you just read to the parts or the one you find offensive? I don't see much reason to talk to USAPyro, he finds this needs name calling. BTW, you'd loose your bet. Optimus, I actually did address you and accept your premise provisionally. Legal doesn't always mean it is a good idea so your argument about the legality is meaningless... at least with those who can see a difference between legal and right. Argue amongst yourselves from here please. I am sure there are enough of my posts to take quotes out of for this to go on fir a good year or more. Try reading the part where I admit to this being a Devil's Advocate argument? While I don't care to do it myself, I couldn't care much less if the rest of you feel like making TNT in your basements. Edited February 19, 2012 by warthog
RogueSwimmer Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 It's all good, man. But thermite has become popular from Mythbusters, 9/11, and just YouTube resurgence of pyrotechnics. Everyone wants to thermite these days. I personally have a stock of 4 thermite compositions. Comes in handy when I have to cut a lock or something.
50AE Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Waste of aluminum for me. But I've lit sometimes for fun.
usapyro Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Not sure why the heck anyone would want to manufacture TNT. It's extremely weak, toxic, and requires a three stage synthesis to be done efficiently. The only reason it was ever used is because it can be melt casted and centrifuged with other explosives safely because of it's extreme insensitivity... You can buy smokeless gunpowder that is more powerful than TNT for Christ sake!!! Try reading the part where I admit to this being a Devil's Advocate argument? While I don't care to do it myself, I couldn't care much less if the rest of you feel like making TNT in your basements.
optimus Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Optimus, I actually did address you and accept your premise provisionally. Legal doesn't always mean it is a good idea so your argument about the legality is meaningless... at least with those who can see a difference between legal and right. Sorry, I've totally lost you now. Must be a language barrier : )
Potassiumchlorate Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Not sure why the heck anyone would want to manufacture TNT. It's extremely weak, toxic, and requires a three stage synthesis to be done efficiently. The only reason it was ever used is because it can be melt casted and centrifuged with other explosives safely because of it's extreme insensitivity... You can buy smokeless gunpowder that is more powerful than TNT for Christ sake!!! I wouldn't say extremely weak, but it's not like RDX, HMX or TNGU, for example, and it is hard to synthezise.
RogueSwimmer Posted February 20, 2012 Posted February 20, 2012 Secondary HE + thermite thermal shock and metallic confinement I am guessing. Like I said, you wouldn't be able to do anything with it. Zing.
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