fred815 Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 I have a few questions that need your experienced advice. My experience is as follows. Make my own willow charcoal and ball mill my BP. Good stuff !! Have made mortars, fountains , flash powders and have been reloading my shotguns (Not BP kind!) for many years.. Very familar with safety issues measuring consistency blah blah blah. Wish to try rockets. Something to start and stay with. No homemade tooling too many variables. SO 1. end burner or core burner? And why 2. Size? 1-2-3 Lb.? Bottle rockets 2 oz and 4 oz are probablky out since I won't spring for more than one or two sets of tooling for now. 3. Hand ram - arbor press - hydraulic press?? Cost wise forget the H. press? Arbor seems a little dangerous - can't measure pressures can you?. 4. Hand ram ball milled DRY BP without dextrin? Wet and granulate then ram?? Did I miss anything??
dagabu Posted February 13, 2012 Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) Mmmmmmmmmmm, I smell cookies Welcome Fred, sit down and stay a while, I think these guys here will git you all ready to make some fine rockets! Here is my take on your questions: Q: end burner or core burner? And whyA: Yes, definitely both. Seriously, there are way too many likes and dislikes for both to post here so you have to answer the question of what do you intend to do with them? Q: Size? 1-2-3 Lb.? Bottle rockets 2 oz and 4 oz are probablky out since I won't spring for more than one or two sets of tooling for now.A- #1 seems to be almost the universal size for the best all-around rocket motor. The #1 end burner power girandolas, caduceus, they even make darn nice missiles! The #1 core burner (UT is my favorite) can be made tame with huge charcoal tails all the way up to space splitting sali based whistle fueled rockets that shoot like bullets from a gun! Q: Hand ram - arbor press - hydraulic press?? Cost wise forget the H. press? Arbor seems a little dangerous - can't measure pressures can you?. A: Press if you can and you will find that an arbor press will cost about the same as a hydraulic press from harbor freight will if you are getting a 4 ton press. Q: Hand ram ball milled DRY BP without dextrin? Wet and granulate then ram??A: Wet, granulate, dry and ram. Dry BP is really messy. -dag Edited February 13, 2012 by dagabu
fred815 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 Mmmmmmmmmmm, I smell cookies Welcome Fred, sit down and stay a while, I think these guys here will git you all ready to make some fine rockets! Here is my take on your questions: Q: end burner or core burner? And whyA: Yes, definitely both. Seriously, there are way too many likes and dislikes for both to post here so you have to answer the question of what do you intend to do with them? Q: Size? 1-2-3 Lb.? Bottle rockets 2 oz and 4 oz are probablky out since I won't spring for more than one or two sets of tooling for now.A- #1 seems to be almost the universal size for the best all-around rocket motor. The #1 end burner power girandolas, caduceus, they even make darn nice missiles! The #1 core burner (UT is my favorite) can be made tame with huge charcoal tails all the way up to space splitting sali based whistle fueled rockets that shoot like bullets from a gun! Q: Hand ram - arbor press - hydraulic press?? Cost wise forget the H. press? Arbor seems a little dangerous - can't measure pressures can you?. A: Press if you can and you will find that an arbor press will cost about the same as a hydraulic press from harbor freight will if you are getting a 4 ton press. Q: Hand ram ball milled DRY BP without dextrin? Wet and granulate then ram??A: Wet, granulate, dry and ram. Dry BP is really messy. -dag
fred815 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 I do like your reply quick and simple. A little confused about the press thing. Are you saying go ahead and spring for a 4 -ton Hyd.. since I'll end up spending that much in getting a Harbor freight arbor press. I did see all the modifications gauges stands welded ratchet handles and so forth (PassFire). Again thanks.
dagabu Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Yes, a 4 ton arbor press will set you back about $350.00 and a hydraulic press (20 ton) will set you back about the same. Wolter Pyro Tooling has a pressure to force gauge for all presses, I suggest that you get one if you don't have a pressure gauge on the press. -dag
fred815 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 Yes, a 4 ton arbor press will set you back about $350.00 and a hydraulic press (20 ton) will set you back about the same. Wolter Pyro Tooling has a pressure to force gauge for all presses, I suggest that you get one if you don't have a pressure gauge on the press. -dag
madmandotcom Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 for presses, most places that have a broken drill press will give it to you if you ask nicely, making that into a rocket press from there is super easy
Mumbles Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Presses from drill presses are crap. They're not designed to deliver applied pressure. Why do you continue to give bad advice? I'll give you the same deal I've given many others. The next time you give advice or say something that's blatantly false, easily disproven, or just flat out crap you're banned for 2 weeks.
allrocketspsl Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 OUCH !! Hand ramming for me. nothing hard about hand ramming,you can get award winning results mate!The chinese di it for a thousand years must be some truth to it.
allrocketspsl Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 for presses, most places that have a broken drill press will give it to you if you ask nicely, making that into a rocket press from there is super easy wont happen
DanielC Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 Here are links to some decent priced presses. Both have pressure gauges and one is a benchtop model. http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-Ton-Benchtop-Shop-Press/H6231Z http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/12-Ton-Hydraulic-Shop-Press-with-Gauge
dagabu Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) Here are links to some decent priced presses. Both have pressure gauges and one is a benchtop model. Yup, and Harbor Freight have them for a buck and a half but I had lots of trouble with all the smaller presses due to flex, the 20 ton and larger presses seen to not flex under pressure. IMHO, the flex in the press destroys rocket motors. Don't get me wrong, just start making rockets, pound them, press them, pour them, just make some and start getting used to them. The high dollar items can wait till later. I do recommend 1/2" or 5/8" for ramming though, at least for me, I fall off of the hits on a 3/4" rocket due to the amount of increments it takes to make one. Also, you NEVER ram whistle or anything except BP. Danny Creagan has a great web site with a fantastic demonstration of the power of whistle that is down right disturbing and will keep you from ever abusing whistle fuel. The whole point of my recommendation is to point you to tooling and tools that you can grow with and that you will not immediately grow out of. -dag Edited February 14, 2012 by dagabu
fred815 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 Yup, and Harbor Freight have them for a buck and a half but I had lots of trouble with all the smaller presses due to flex, the 20 ton and larger presses seen to not flex under pressure. IMHO, the flex in the press destroys rocket motors. Don't get me wrong, just start making rockets, pound them, press them, pour them, just make some and start getting used to them. The high dollar items can wait till later. I do recommend 1/2" or 5/8" for ramming though, at least for me, I fall off of the hits on a 3/4" rocket due to the amount of increments it takes to make one. Also, you NEVER ram whistle or anything except BP. Danny Creagan has a great web site with a fantastic demonstration of the power of whistle that is down right disturbing and will keep you from ever abusing whistle fuel. The whole point of my recommendation is to point you to tooling and tools that you can grow with and that you will not immediately grow out of. -dag
fred815 Posted February 14, 2012 Author Posted February 14, 2012 CHILL out and relax there mumbles. I don't believe he was recommending drill presses in general. After all they ARE a cheap arbor press in theory. A weak but straight precision ram. I believe he was JUST suggesting some cheap options?? Am I right or am I wrong. Just wanted some advice from those more experienced than I. Not start a pissing contest. Wouldn't it have sounded better if you just advised me of the simple fact that a drill press might not have the beef for the BIG rocket pressures?? etc etc anyway thanks for the advice
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 CHILL out and relax there mumbles. I don't believe he was recommending drill presses in general. After all they ARE a cheap arbor press in theory. A weak but straight precision ram. I believe he was JUST suggesting some cheap options?? Am I right or am I wrong. Just wanted some advice from those more experienced than I. Not start a pissing contest. Wouldn't it have sounded better if you just advised me of the simple fact that a drill press might not have the beef for the BIG rocket pressures?? etc etc anyway thanks for the advice madmandotcom has a notoriety here for posting very edgy and dangerous stuff from time to time. That wasnt the first time bad advice was given.
dagabu Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 CHILL out and relax there mumbles. I don't believe he was recommending drill presses in general. After all they ARE a cheap arbor press in theory. A weak but straight precision ram. I believe he was JUST suggesting some cheap options?? Am I right or am I wrong. Just wanted some advice from those more experienced than I. Not start a pissing contest. Wouldn't it have sounded better if you just advised me of the simple fact that a drill press might not have the beef for the BIG rocket pressures?? etc etc anyway thanks for the advice Fred, Mumbles is your friend, really. You want to exercise caution when replying like this and maybe even a PM would serve your purpose better then the #5 font in bold post... My $.02 -dag
Peret Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I've tried pressing one pound rockets with a 1 ton arbor press. It worked, but it took an unfeasible amount of pressure on the bar to form a solid nozzle, which is the only thing I could judge it by. The BP seemed to press nice and hard and they flew just fine, but overall it took longer than pounding them. With a heavy mallet and my strong right arm I can ram a dozen motors in less than an hour.
dagabu Posted February 14, 2012 Posted February 14, 2012 I've tried pressing one pound rockets with a 1 ton arbor press. It worked, but it took an unfeasible amount of pressure on the bar to form a solid nozzle, which is the only thing I could judge it by. The BP seemed to press nice and hard and they flew just fine, but overall it took longer than pounding them. With a heavy mallet and my strong right arm I can ram a dozen motors in less than an hour. Were you a roofer? This is a young mans game, I used up my hands and wrists and shoulders on dirt bikes -dag
Peret Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Were you a roofer? This is a young mans game, I used up my hands and wrists and shoulders on dirt bikes A roofer? No... My muscles and skeleton are relatively undamaged after a lifetime of righteous living. Even now I'm a feeble old geezer venerable elder I can still swing a mallet. Or an edged weapon. I had to hang up my ten pound Morning Star though.
madmandotcom Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 i have used a modified drill press to press sugar rockets without problem
dagabu Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 (edited) MMDC, was the sugar fuel granular or melted when you "pressed" it? We hardly ever speak of what the actual meanings are when we use certain words like "press" and you may just be thinking that it simply means to push down. In this forum, pressing means to use high pressure, mechanical or hydraulic, to consolidate the fuel grain mechanically. Poured sugar fuels are not pressed, they are cast. Any pressure you would put on a sugar rocket would only make you feel better and would not even drive air out of the grain as it gets trapped immediately once encapsulated. Yes, some consolidation can be had with granulated sugar fuels and most of the air can be driven out with pressure (low) but this method will be all but useless in all BP and Whistle rockets bigger than 1/4" due to the lack of force that a drill press can create. -dag Edited February 15, 2012 by dagabu
nater Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 Were you a roofer? This is a young mans game, I used up my hands and wrists and shoulders on dirt bikes -dag I am a young man, and I have messed up my shoulder bad in a ski race. I can only pound 3 or 4 one pound motors at a time.
dagabu Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I am a young man, and I have messed up my shoulder bad in a ski race. I can only pound 3 or 4 one pound motors at a time. That's going to hurt like a mother when you are in your 40's. I have more injuries from dirt biking then I can count. I only bruised my kidneys in my worse skiing crash but they did have to cut me out of the orange fencing (I hate that stuff). I can pound 1 rocket and I am done... -dag
OneEyeCharlie Posted February 15, 2012 Posted February 15, 2012 I can pound 1 rocket and I am done... I had to quit pounding my rocket. I'm already blind in one eye.
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