Rocket Candy

[Lucas]

Ok, so im very new to rockets... so be nice lol. Ok so in the past iv attempted Arial salutes, failed horribly.. so now im going to attempt rockets. First off so you know my level of knowledge.. iv really only made ground salutes and a couple mortars..

My first question is iv seen a couple different recipes for rcandy, some with glucose syrup and some without.. whats the difference? should i use it or shouldnt i?

Next question is how to get compact it... do you pack it into the tube while it is still soft?

and third is what do i use for a nozzle? or do i drill a whole through the center? ... like i said im new to rockets lol

[Lucas]

Iv answered some of my own questions from doing research.. but im still a little confuse on the nozzle part, and im most likley gonna be making just salute rockets.. the rocket candy should burn all the way through igniting the flash at the end right???

[Mumbles]

If you're here just to make salutes, you might as well leave now and save me the trouble of banning you.

 

Seriously, salutes are about the last thing a person should experiment with as they are getting into pyro. They're the most dangerous, and draw the most unwanted attention to our hobby. I really do not take kindly to people who do not respect the hobby. Given your stated experience level and the fact that you don't come off as particularly intelligent, I have my doubts if you'll be getting too much help in preparing salute rockets. There is plenty of information here around r-candy rockets. Please have a search through the archives, and I'm sure you'll figure it out.

[Lucas]

ha i didn't say anything about helping me make salutes, i know how to make them just fine. I just need wanted to know how the rocket was going to burn through though and ignite the flash. I can make regular salutes just fine. And the only reason i sound dumb is because i don't want to sound like a douche by saying something i don't fully understand. But if Rocket salutes isn't a part of pyrotechnics, i being an amateur and coming to an amateur pyrotechnics forum wasnt the right thing to do to prevent blowing my hand off.

 

p.s i wouldn't be making just salutes if i could afford all the chems to make stars and such

 

Thanks anyway and way to be rude, ill find my answers some were else

 

 

[Lucas]

You have to be the rudest admin ever, going to insult me by calling me dumb and say i disrespect the hobby by liking flash salutes????? we all get started some were. And im not new to this at all, just rockets.

[Mumbles]

You actually come off as unintelligent because of your spelling, lack of capitalization, grammar, and seemingly are only interested in making salutes.

 

What I was trying to say is you are no where near experienced enough to be messing with salutes. If that is your only interest, then you really don't have a lot of business here. There is no artistry in making things go boom. Pyro isn't a cheap hobby. Though for what it's worth, the chems needed to make flash are some of the more expensive, which you seem to have no problems with.

 

I understand that people tend to get started there, but I really suggest moving on to bigger and better (and less destructive) things.

[NightHawkInLight]

The questions asked really weren't all that k3wlish...

[Lucas]

You are a HORRIBLE admin, and idc about my spelling. I came here, asked a couple questions and get instantly bashed on.. BY AN ADMIN! iv been scrolling through other posts and its like your the only one with a stick up your butt? There are plenty of other topics on salutes?? Your assuming i only want to make salutes, and assuming i have no respect for pyro ? And everyone has to start some were ? would you like me to jump to making 6 inch shells?? So im gonna start making simple stuff, then move on to bigger and greater things.. Im not gonna invest in a bunch of chems to make stars if i cant even make a successful rocket. Iv got flash, i might as well make some salute rockets. Not at first of course but i will eventually Edited February 11, 2012 by Lucas

[nater]

I don't think your questions were bad, so much as the way they were asked. I thought the same thing as Mumbles from the spelling alone. You said your "arial" salutes failed horribly, then want to jump to making salute rockets. Rockets made by beginners like myself don't always work well in the beginning, and adding salutes just up the risk when they CATO or flop on the ground right after lift off.

 

If I were you, I would just get motors to fly good, then worry about any headings. To be honest, if you are worred about expensive chems, just get the three BP chems and a sampling of metals and you can make rockets, gerbs, and a bunch of different stars far cheaper than buying fuel for flash.

Edited February 11, 2012 by nater

[DanielC]

If you want to make rockets you will get all the help you need here, but you can't pop in here on your 1st post and start dicussing salutes .

That is seriously the last thing you need to work with as a beginner. If you want a report on your rockets there are other safer ways.

First of all, I would work on the rockets and get them tuned in before anything. You said everyone has to start somewhere, but you are skipping

the crawling, and walking stage and going straight for the olympics. I'm just saying if you have a true interest in this art, start small and build on it.

Skipping steps will get you into trouble, hurt or both.

[dagabu]

Ok, so im very new to rockets... so be nice lol. Ok so in the past iv attempted Arial salutes, failed horribly.. so now im going to attempt rockets. First off so you know my level of knowledge.. iv really only made ground salutes and a couple mortars..

My first question is iv seen a couple different recipes for rcandy, some with glucose syrup and some without.. whats the difference? should i use it or shouldnt i?

Next question is how to get compact it... do you pack it into the tube while it is still soft?

and third is what do i use for a nozzle? or do i drill a whole through the center? ... like i said im new to rockets lol

 

Lucas,

 

Lets get to rocket fuel shall we? Yes, you will compact the still hot mass into a tube and then make a nozzle, some use a nail or a stick to perform the function and still others drill the nozzle after the grain has set. My opinion is that sugar fuel is difficult to make and use when compared with making and using black powder for fuel.

 

Making BP is also safer in my experience since you don't have to be anywhere close to it when you are milling it where as with R-candy, you have to use a hot plate to melt and cook the mix. The R-candy also is extremely hygroscopic, meaning that it will turn into a gooey mess if left to absorb water from the air.

 

I make a version of the R-candy rocket for daytime shoots that I like a lot, I use Universal Tooling and press a clay nozzle, make a batch of R-candy with no syrup, let it ALMOST cool and grate the fuel with a cheese grater, press increments all the way to the top of the spindle plus 1 ID of the rocket then I use 1 increment (rocket ID) of whistle fuel for delay and use a small salute to mark the end of flight.

 

I store these in a sealed container with desiccant for later use.

 

I will be trying this method later this spring but with an electric skillet and not open flame and pour a rocket on my UT set to see if I get even better thrust. If so, I will likely do a nozzleless motor and see what performance I get from it.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVKvlX2W_-g

 

Good luck on this endeavor but please, do me and all of us a favor, don't insult Mumbles, even if he has scolded you. He is very good people and the best ally you would ever have if you simply listen to his correction and move on.

 

-dag

Edited February 11, 2012 by dagabu

[donperry]

Hey Lucas,

 

First things first, welcome to the rocketry hobby.

Secondly, remember to respect the fuel and it will respect you.

Thirdly, watch as many YouTube videos you can, and search the net for more information. A good place to start is www.jamesyawn.com/ www.nakka-rocketry.net/ or even my own website, www.pvcrocketry.com

You will find wealth of information on the first two sites. This month is 1 year since I've started this hobby and I still feel like a newbie - that's just how much information there is to consume, adopt and put in practice!

 

also, remember not to shoot rockets in areas where a returning rocket may damage property or injure (or kill) someone. If you live in the city or suburbs then this may not be ideal for that location.

 

[Lucas]

Thanks for the links everyone, and idk why i said arial salutes.. i dont think i made one arial salute ha but im gonna stop using that word around here. Im gonna do some reaserch but correct me if im wrong please, You can core a rocket or put a nozzle on it right? Corring is were you drill or maake a whole into the rocket and a nozzle is were you just... well put a nozzle on the end lol

 

and i promise you, i wasnt gonna strap a header on my first rockets. haha

[Lucas]

so you think bp rockets are better? Do they require a ball mill.. because i dont have one at the moment, im planning on making one or buying one soonish...

[nater]

No need to ball mill rocket fuel, although some have better results when they do. Most cored BP motors have a nozzle as well, although you can make nozzless, coreburning BP motors with hot BP. Just search. There is no such thing as a "whole" in a rocket though.

[dagabu]

No... I don't think they are better then RC but it is WAY easier to get all the parts you need that make for efficient use of the thrust with BP then it is when using RC. With an RC motor, you use cast grains inside a reusable casing or a throwaway PVC casing, neither of which are acceptable in the pyro community.

 

Lets just start with a basic list of stuff that is OK to throw up in the air in pyro. Paper, clay, sticks, fuel. Pretty short list huh? No plastics (some shells are plastic but not preferred in pyro) and no metals or very hard materials that don't disintegrate and/or breakdown to be reabsorbed into the earth over time.

 

With a BP rocket, you can make a convergence and a divergence to the nozzle that will allow for higher thrusts and more efficient flow of the gasses. With RC motors, if you drill the nozzle, you will have no convergence or divergence to take advantage of the gas flow. This is usually just fine for small motors like 1/2" ID bottle rockets and such but with larger motors, you will likely burn through the casing where the nozzle clay meets the fuel.

 

Now, there is much discussion as to the lifting capability of BP v.s. RC but in my experiences, RC has been better known to lift less weight higher and BP to lift more weight to a lower height. I am sure this will open a flood gate of disagreement but in the end, you need to use what you can afford, what you are able to make with your skill set and what you have available for materials.

 

Be safe, go slow, ask questions.

 

-dag

[Lucas]

So bp is sounding like a better choice ha so you cant put rc in cardboard tubes? will it burn through the sides?

[nater]

Dag - One of the projects on my list when I get my thrust test stand and amp soldered together is to compare a sugar rocket and BP rocket both built on UH spindles. There seems to be some disagreement about the power of each and the groups trying to get a sugar fueled rocket into space have me curious. Maybe it will be something that can be tested at PGI, so we can compare results from many different builders.

 

Edit: for the sake of science, I suspect that a BP core burner with good coal will have more thrust than rcandy, which will have more thrust than a comparably sized commercial BP model rocket motor (end burners, I know...). This is just my hypothesis and I am willing to be proven wrong. Of course this test would ignore asthetics like good tails and appropriate display heights, which I think are more important than thrust.

Edited February 11, 2012 by nater

[Lucas]

Can you use paper tubes for rc?

[Lucas]

Would buying a bp rocket kit from skylighter a good idea? There prices seem pretty reasonable too..

[nater]

If Skylighter still offers the kit with 1/2" tooling and the proper chems, that would be a good start. If you follow Ned's directions with the projects on that site word for word, you should be fine. His beginner projects like the 1/2" rockets, flying fish fuse mines, plasma torch fountains are all fairly safe and fairly reliable. I have had good luck with them at least. It is a big boost to your confidance when things work like you want them too as you learn. I am far from an expert and am still learning, but those projects have been a big help. Edited February 11, 2012 by nater

[DanielC]

I agree. That would be a great place to start. Ned's tutorials are some of the best.

[dagabu]

Can you use paper tubes for rc?

 

 

Would buying a bp rocket kit from skylighter a good idea? There prices seem pretty reasonable too..

 

WOLTER PYRO has tooling as well as FIRESMITH but SKYLIGHTER only carries a 4oz cored set, no 1# sets which I would suggest if you have any intention of lifting shells.

 

Yes, I use only paper tubes for pyro, I roll some of my own and buy others. Kevin from PYRODIRECT and SKYLIGHTER carry pulpy tubes. SKYLIGHTER and HOBBYHORSE carry New England Paper Tubes which are widely considered the best you buy.

 

I suggest the Universal Hybrid Rocket Tooling Set from Firesmith personally as I believe he uses the best materials for spindles (brass).

 

-dag

[anapogeetoofar]

Now, there is much discussion as to the lifting capability of BP v.s. RC but in my experiences, RC has been better known to lift less weight higher and BP to lift more weight to a lower height.

 

When comparing two nozzleless motors; one with melt cast sugar, the other BP. The sugar motor produces only slightly less thrust, but for a greater duration. Seems this agrees with your statement to a certain extent.

The tails don't even come close though. Even in daylight, a nozzleless BP motor with a few % Al has a nice visual flame.

Sugar is so much more convienent though, just have to come up with a way to make it visually appealing.

 

Definitely stick with NEPT, unless you want to go nozzleless. NEPT's don't make much sense then, the unnecessary weight is probably detrimental to performance.

[dagabu]

When comparing two nozzleless motors; one with melt cast sugar, the other BP. The sugar motor produces only slightly less thrust, but for a greater duration. Seems this agrees with your statement to a certain extent.

The tails don't even come close though. Even in daylight, a nozzleless BP motor with a few % Al has a nice visual flame.

Sugar is so much more convienent though, just have to come up with a way to make it visually appealing.

 

Definitely stick with NEPT, unless you want to go nozzleless. NEPT's don't make much sense then, the unnecessary weight is probably detrimental to performance.

 

I agree with you 100%, I was actually alluding to the copious amounts of white smoke the RC fuel makes v.s. BP, not the flame. Sorry for not being more specific.

 

 

-dag