Black Powder

[chuck45]

Hey team.

 

I've been doing alot of research lately in relation to particle size of blackpowder. My interest at this point is in firearm use.

 

The powder to be used is a very fast granulated form, using willow charcoal. Burns cleaner than commercial.

 

My main question is; roughly what is granulated powder (through a kitchen sieve) equivalent to in grain size? It would appear to be approximately the same as FFg. I am confident it would be suitable for use in blackpowder pistols, but I would like to try some 12g loads. The loading manuals give appropriate loads for FFg, but I'm looking for anyone with experience in using granulated powder in firearms. The shotgun is a boito single shot break action, external hammer, near new.

 

At this point I have no powder press and such. Hence my asking about granulated powder specifically.

 

If this is not appropriate, I do appolagise. It is difficult to find this information on firearm forums as not many of the shooters seem to be well versed in powder making. Thus, I ask here.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

chuck45

[dan999ification]

Hey team.

 

I've been doing alot of research lately in relation to particle size of blackpowder. My interest at this point is in firearm use.

 

The powder to be used is a very fast granulated form, using willow charcoal. Burns cleaner than commercial.

 

My main question is; roughly what is granulated powder (through a kitchen sieve) equivalent to in grain size? It would appear to be approximately the same as FFg. I am confident it would be suitable for use in blackpowder pistols, but I would like to try some 12g loads. The loading manuals give appropriate loads for FFg, but I'm looking for anyone with experience in using granulated powder in firearms. The shotgun is a boito single shot break action, external hammer, near new.

 

At this point I have no powder press and such. Hence my asking about granulated powder specifically.

 

If this is not appropriate, I do appolagise. It is difficult to find this information on firearm forums as not many of the shooters seem to be well versed in powder making. Thus, I ask here.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

chuck45

 

 

i cant give you complete answers and have no experience with bp firearms but here goes.

kitchen sieves vary in size i have a few different mesh sizes from sieves, if yours is the same as ffg thats what you have though if your powder is better the grain size could be too small[ you my get higher velocity/ more recoil/ broken weapon]

if your powder is superior to commercial you will obviously put more stress on the pistol when fired, is that 12 grains or 12 grams you want to use?

pressing the powder will get you more consistant results than granulating through sieves as the grains have different structure, granulated powder from a screen burns faster than corned powder imho as it often has pores,batches can differ that will have to be taken into account using larger loads.

i would work my way up untill happy with the performance.

sorry for the incomplete post, i just try to help where i can.

 

dan.

Edited February 2, 2012 by dan999ification

[Potassiumchlorate]

Ulrich Bretscher knows a few things about BP.

 

Personally I'd prefer Pyrodex or Triple Seven for firearms. It's more powerful but spares the barrel, since there is no sulfur in it. He has some sulfurless BP compositions as well on his page.

[nater]

My grandpa used to make all of his own powder he used in some vintage firearms, he intentionally made it slow. Keep in mind that commercial BP is slow, if your powder is too fast you can blow up your gun and your hands with it.

[cogbarry]

I would not do this and I can't see how it would make sense economically. You would have to use a lot of BP to make this worth your time and effort. Like others have said, faster may not be better. The charge used in firearms has to be very precise and the rate in which it burns would be determined by the pressure the gun can take, length of barrel, etc. Too fast and the gun blows up in your face. Too slow and the bullet,wadding,etc doesn't leave the barrel - put another round in and the gun blows up in your face. One of the first safety rules you will read in any gun manual (right up there with "watch where you point it") is "use the right ammo". I wouldn't use any BP or ammo in any gun that wasn't recommended by the manufacturer unless I really knew what I was doing and I knew my BP was consistent (and I mean exactly the same between batches). You are experimenting, you can't know the specs of your BP that well.

[Blackthumb]

take a few hours and read this pub...one of the best I've found... Edited February 2, 2012 by Mumbles

[Mumbles]

Unfortunately what you posted blackthumb is a copyrighted book. The pyro community is a small one, and the fringe literature doesn't make the authors a lot of money in the first place. It however is an excellent book. I have it and love it. That combined with Lloyd's ball milling book pretty much give a complete story on BP manufacture. Luckily however, both are quite inexpensive.

 

http://www.fireworksnews.com/product/34/2

 

 

Here is a few tables on the graded sizes of BP grains.

 

http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/help/Black_Powder_Size_Charts.asp

 

If you're going to do thing, you'll definitely want to carefully grade your powder. This means a maximum size cutoff, and a minimum size cut off. Just granulating through a kitchen screen will give erratic and potentially dangerous results. I know there are a few people who have successfully made their own firearm propellants, but it's not exactly a task to be taken lightly. The quality and size must be very consistent. It would make me feel uneasy to use granules instead of pressed and corned powder. The corned powder is just so much more resilient.

[RogueSwimmer]

The pyro community is a small one, and the fringe literature doesn't make the authors a lot of money in the first place

 

Mumbles, I agree, but there is hardly any guarantee the book writers get any money from someone purchasing it as it could be used book resales. If they do, I strongly encourage to buy it because it is much more pleasant to read a book in hardcover than stare at computer. And if you were to print it out yourself, it would take you about same amount of ink and paper.

 

 

EDIT:

 

Actually, the website you posted, M, is in fact the publisher, so yes, I would imagine some percentage would go to the writer or at least benefit the pyro publication industry.

For a small price, it is worth buying a book VS. killing your eyesight on a computer.

Edited February 3, 2012 by RogueSwimmer

[Mumbles]

Even if not, American Firework News is a cornerstone of the pyro literature world. The owners are good people. To me, support of them is as important as the support of the authors. In any case, we really can't be condoning literature piracy here. I am all for spreading information, but without limits and incentive to create good work, well you end up with youtube quality pyro information.

[Blackthumb]

I goofed...didn't see the copyright...thanks for removing it...here is an uncopyrighted set of notes on BP grades that may be of help

 

 

Sporting Grade Black Powder -- "g" type powders

 

Powder Grade pass screen, holding, stays on, passing

 

Fg 12 mesh 3% 16 mesh 12%

FFg 16 mesh 3% 30 mesh 12%

FFFg 20 mesh 3% 50 mesh 12%

FFFFg 40 mesh 3% 100 mesh 12%

FFFFFg (no longer manufactured by Goex)

 

 

 

[marks265]

I have a 75 caliber Brown Bess. Basically, I used willow charcoal in 75/15/10 plus 5 dextrin. I added water to it about 8 -10 percent and ran it through a window screen a couple of times. After I let it rest I ran it back through the screen until it riced nicely. If it is too wet, wait a little longer and rice it through the screen again. If spread out well on chipboard or something it won't take long to dry. This flintlock is a smooth bore so I started out with 75 grains of powder and worked my way up to ballistically match what Goex would do for me at 50-75 yards shooting distance. I think with Goex I was loading 125 grains. It was a real hoot to load this thing and go bird hunting for grouse with shot loads. My neighbors knew when I had the smoke stick out!

 

Mark

[chuck45]

Thanks for the kind and useful advice everyone.

 

I will certainly doing further reading before trying anything. Whilst my powder is super consistent, my granulation isn't. I will most likely wait until I begin proper corning, to get better grain geometry and performance.

 

I will tread with caution and keep you all posted.

[Blackthumb]

I have a 75 caliber Brown Bess. Basically, I used willow charcoal in 75/15/10 plus 5 dextrin. I added water to it about 8 -10 percent and ran it through a window screen a couple of times. After I let it rest I ran it back through the screen until it riced nicely. If it is too wet, wait a little longer and rice it through the screen again. If spread out well on chipboard or something it won't take long to dry. This flintlock is a smooth bore so I started out with 75 grains of powder and worked my way up to ballistically match what Goex would do for me at 50-75 yards shooting distance. I think with Goex I was loading 125 grains. It was a real hoot to load this thing and go bird hunting for grouse with shot loads. My neighbors knew when I had the smoke stick out!

 

Mark

 

 

Marks...reminds me of hunting with a muzzle loading double bbl...set a field on fire but I got the rabbit!

[marks265]

Marks...reminds me of hunting with a muzzle loading double bbl...set a field on fire but I got the rabbit!

 

hehe, I hate it when that happens! My brother got our grandfathers double bbl and he sold it. I wish I could have had my meat hooks on it instead. I believe that had damascus barrels so maybe it is better off that I never did get it.

 

Mark

[chuck45]

It's great to hear some others who enjoy the challenges of shooting blackpowder, especially self manufactured powder. Much cheaper and cleaner than commercial.

 

Marks265, with your process, do you skip milling?

 

Also, when I said 12g loads, I mean 12 gauge, as in shotgun.

 

Thanks.

[marks265]

75 cal is 12 gauge. If ya wanna be a real man, try shootin' a 4 bore which is one inch caliber! Yep, ya gotta mill the powder

 

Mark

 

 

 

[mxman123]

If I were to order (can't purchase locally in NW Washington) sporting powder for lifting shells ranging anywhere from 2.5 - 8" what would be the most useful size to purchase? Cannon or 2fg? -OR- a little of both (2fg for < 6") and (cannon >= 6"). The reason for commercial for lift? Weak burst = bad aesthetics : Weak lift = bad day

[Peret]

Cannon is the equivalent grade of 2FA. You might need it for 6 and above but it's on the slow side for small shells. I think 2FG would make a good universal compromise. I make my own lift and use what passes 10 and is retained on 20, which is about 2FG equivalent.

[mxman123]

Cannon is the equivalent grade of 2FA. You might need it for 6 and above but it's on the slow side for small shells. I think 2FG would make a good universal compromise. I make my own lift and use what passes 10 and is retained on 20, which is about 2FG equivalent.

 

Thank you!

[Arthur]

Sadly a kitchen mesh isn't adequate for grading BP. You really do need some proper sieves, a set for grading BP should go from 10mesh to 100mesh and within that range should be at least seven grade cuts. I was once aware of BP weapons using 7Fa which is very fine.

 

http://www.pyroguide.com/index.php?title=Gunpowder_Grades

 

The grade table is worth a look, Several UK suppliers sell stainless meshes, as I thik do McMaster Carr in the USA. (Other sellers will exist some will do mail order)

 

A set of stacking small sandwich boxes with the bottom removed and mesh fused in will nicely separate corned or grated powder into mesh cuts and hence grade sizes.

 

Having good BP in good grade cuts is essential for safe and reliable pyro (Try to lift a 3" shell with FFA and it will plop out and you will see the rest o the powder burn try the same with finer powder and you will get a nice lift to height, Lift a 6" with FFA and it will lift nicely try 7FA and something msy break.)

[mxman123]

Sadly a kitchen mesh isn't adequate for grading BP. You really do need some proper sieves, a set for grading BP should go from 10mesh to 100mesh and within that range should be at least seven grade cuts. I was once aware of BP weapons using 7Fa which is very fine.

 

http://www.pyroguide...unpowder_Grades

 

The grade table is worth a look, Several UK suppliers sell stainless meshes, as I thik do McMaster Carr in the USA. (Other sellers will exist some will do mail order)

 

A set of stacking small sandwich boxes with the bottom removed and mesh fused in will nicely separate corned or grated powder into mesh cuts and hence grade sizes.

 

Having good BP in good grade cuts is essential for safe and reliable pyro (Try to lift a 3" shell with FFA and it will plop out and you will see the rest o the powder burn try the same with finer powder and you will get a nice lift to height, Lift a 6" with FFA and it will lift nicely try 7FA and something msy break.)

 

LOL, (plop out) that's exactly what was happening when I was testing my homeade FFA with baseballs. I had to add 3 grams of whistle to 30grms of my FFA (granulated red gum through 4 - retain12 mesh commercial sieve) to get good lift of the baseballs, but I'd rather not have to boost my lift. I continue working on my bp, but would rather just go with a consistent commercial lift to eliminate one variable of failure...

[jdrewes1961]

The new link to the book referenced here is

 

http://www.fireworksnews.com/Item/M2

[greyhawk]

Hey team.

 

I've been doing alot of research lately in relation to particle size of blackpowder. My interest at this point is in firearm use.

 

The powder to be used is a very fast granulated form, using willow charcoal. Burns cleaner than commercial.

 

My main question is; roughly what is granulated powder (through a kitchen sieve) equivalent to in grain size? It would appear to be approximately the same as FFg. I am confident it would be suitable for use in blackpowder pistols, but I would like to try some 12g loads. The loading manuals give appropriate loads for FFg, but I'm looking for anyone with experience in using granulated powder in firearms. The shotgun is a boito single shot break action, external hammer, near new.

 

At this point I have no powder press and such. Hence my asking about granulated powder specifically.

 

If this is not appropriate, I do appolagise. It is difficult to find this information on firearm forums as not many of the shooters seem to be well versed in powder making. Thus, I ask here.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

chuck45

 

Hey team.

 

I've been doing alot of research lately in relation to particle size of blackpowder. My interest at this point is in firearm use.

 

The powder to be used is a very fast granulated form, using willow charcoal. Burns cleaner than commercial.

 

My main question is; roughly what is granulated powder (through a kitchen sieve) equivalent to in grain size? It would appear to be approximately the same as FFg. I am confident it would be suitable for use in blackpowder pistols, but I would like to try some 12g loads. The loading manuals give appropriate loads for FFg, but I'm looking for anyone with experience in using granulated powder in firearms. The shotgun is a boito single shot break action, external hammer, near new.

 

At this point I have no powder press and such. Hence my asking about granulated powder specifically.

 

If this is not appropriate, I do appolagise. It is difficult to find this information on firearm forums as not many of the shooters seem to be well versed in powder making. Thus, I ask here.

 

Any help would be much appreciated.

 

chuck45

Hey Chuck

None of the following constitutes a recommendation in any shape or form -- its simply a record of what I have done - no guns have blown up yet.

I am shooting my own made powder in a 45 flinter, 45 cap n ball colt repro, brass framed uberti'66 in 44/40, and a uberti 1876 in 45/75 - have shot all except the flinter over a chrono to check stuff .

grain for grain my powder is a touch faster than 5FA Goex (the goex is old but good - bought before the last time the factory blew up) major problem is density - my stuff is taking much more space in

measures - thats ok in a muzzle loader just cut a bigger measure to the same weight and you are set - cartridge guns looked like a problem but the homemade compresses much more than commercial

 

ok - the 44/40 I fill the case brimfull, compress it with the neck expander die, then add another small scoop (a lee 5ccmeasure) that gets me 34grains by weight, my Goex load for that rifle is 34 grains with about 2mm compression - I have not put a scale on my press but its an old unit, not compound leverage and both loads feel about the same compression, so my powder - average 1245fps - the Goex load average 1220fps - both with identical cases, primers, and a 200grain lead.

PPP Wano powder in this rifle average 1090fps

 

45 cap and ball revolver - this is a ASM pseudo 1851 navy with the stepped cylinder in 45 cal (yeah colt never made em but this is a real nice pistol) and I have been shooting 32 grains of goex in it have not chronoed the goex yet - my powder I just fill the chamber to the top - press my thumb in a little and seat the ball - it goes in with plenty of room for a 1/8th inch grease cookie over the ball and I got average 740fps over the screens - thats about right on the money for that load in that gun I think.

 

45 flinter 42inch barrel - no chrono results - doesnt matter - just keep stoking it up till it hits on the sights - shot my powder in this gun at a major comp recently and was the only guy out of 70 that they called up on the stage for three prizes - it shoots way cleaner than even the goex load - I fired thirty shots and it was still loading like a fresh clean gun (thats the part of this project that got me excited really)

 

45/75 1876 Uberti - am using reformed 348 winchester cases for this rifle and man they are tough!! still forming out on the fourth reload and no way can I get the amount of powder in that other guys claim to be loading - I have been using a compressed 67 grain load of chinese FF (screened out of 4FA pyro powder) with a 350grain slug, but its so dirty I was in process of figuring a duplex load so tried

5 grains of 4227 under that 67 grain load of chinese and we got average 1331fps

my powder FFgrade - a full case via the drop tube then compressed is 61 grains and we got average 1336fps

then with 5 fgrains of 4227 under 60 grains of homemade we got average 1463fps

this is a work in progress - I am getting odd weaker loads over the chrono - maybe 150 fps slower - you can hear them - likely that is reloading technique - measure not filling evenly - or whatever - but I am excited by the fact that this powder burns cleaner than anything I ever shot - and also that we can get equivalent velocity in a cartridge - i think some fine tuning will get it sorted .

 

Granulation ? I am mixing 3%Dextrin - tried 5% and that was way too much, just made black glue - making clay balls and push them through a 6 mesh screen, then I remake that into balls again and through the screen again onto window mesh to dry (I figure this gets it better mixed - the dexrin seems to really activate when you push it through the screen) when its dried enough to do so I push it through a 12 mest strainer and then complete dry .

 

I got my screens prowling the kitchen shops

12 mesh is a common cheap kitchen strainer

Aluminium window gauze is 14.5 mesh

a good quality kitchen sieve is 20 mesh

then I cut up an old boom spray strainer that is 40mesh (thats probably the hardest size to find)

had some fine see through fabric that is about hundred mesh

so if it wont pass the 12 mesh it goes under the rolling pin to crush it

pass 12 mesh.... held on window screen is Fg ... goes in musket

pass window screen ....held on 20 mesh strainer is FFg ... goes in big rifles .. 45/75 , 45/70, 50 and 54 cal muzzle loaders

pass 20 mesh held on 40 mesh is FFFg ... goes in 44/40 , 45 cal muzzle loader , pistol etc

pass 40 held on 100 is FFFFg - pan priming and maybe we use it in small cartridge (32/20etc)

pass 100 mesh I call mill dust and goes back in the next batch for mixing / granulating

 

without the info I gleaned from this list I would have had much less success OR taken so much longer to get to the same point with it.

If I could buy a 25lb bag of goex off the cracker man like in the old days this would be a waste of time (still be fun though!)

But the cracker man is using chinese, Wano is weak and not that clean either, Swiss is over a hundred bucks a kilo , and this is fun.

maybe some of this helps .

Greyhawk

[Sparx88]

Damn man that is nice of you to post all that. I found it useful because I shoot a newer 45 pistol (cap) single shot and your numbers are almost like mine so that confirms things. Ty

[greyhawk]

Damn man that is nice of you to post all that. I found it useful because I shoot a newer 45 pistol (cap) single shot and your numbers are almost like mine so that confirms things. Ty

Thanks ! Its easy to write about something that is fun!

Updating ---- powder seems to be holding up ok - I fired a string of 44/40 loads last sunday at the range - 5 rounds of homemade powder (been loaded a month or so) went right in the middle of a group made with GOEX loads at 50 yards -- out of a Uberti 66 rifle

also made several three shot clusters that ran about an inch and a quarter with my flinter at that same distance -- but for whatever reason that rifle is still shooting a bit low -- the load is 55grains weight behind a 45roundball -- that same measure gives 75 grains of GOEX 5FA so there is a fair bit of difference in the bulk density -- I am gonna cut a new backsight to get it on target as the load seems about right - will chrono this one soon - just feeling my way with the chrono a bit - am getting real good ingition with the flinter using homemade fines as priming - this powder makes much less smoke than most and is way cleaner in the guns.

Figuring out the cartridge loads was the challenge (I thought) but this powder compresses down in the case just fine and that problem has mostly been taken care of I think.

I did try one batch of powder using alcohol and water to mix it instead of just water -- it was much easier to work with than the water mix - first test we got an extra hundred FPS over the chrono with it and I thought I was real clever - but came back a couple weeks later and that difference was gone - maybe had some residual alcohol in the grain structure? - maybe not so clever - dont think i will do that again.

Once again - without the info gleaned from this list - my project would have been way more difficult/slower - so thanks to all.

Greyhawk