THEONE Posted January 20, 2012 Posted January 20, 2012 (edited) I was thinking to make a rocket fuel. and use some syrup as a blinder and try to recrystallized it... Edited January 20, 2012 by THEONE
THEONE Posted January 20, 2012 Author Posted January 20, 2012 Has anyone try it before ? also has any possibility to detonate ?
THEONE Posted January 21, 2012 Author Posted January 21, 2012 (edited) Yes and yes. Can you give me more details please cause i do not want to hurt myself, that is why i made first the topic before try it... Edited January 21, 2012 by THEONE
anapogeetoofar Posted January 25, 2012 Posted January 25, 2012 It works fine, just ball mill each component separately, dry the ammonium nitrate, screen together, and press. Mess around with it, its fairly forgiving, and don't worry about it detonating. I would use it if it weren't for how hygroscopic it is. Five minutes outside and its a puddle of gunk. Shame. Igniting it is a pain as well, use some good hot fuse.
THEONE Posted January 25, 2012 Author Posted January 25, 2012 I do not wan to press it i want to made some grains and i was thinking to use some glucose syrup as a blinder
anapogeetoofar Posted January 25, 2012 Posted January 25, 2012 Not going to work. You can press it into grains if you want to, but there is no way to cast this propellant.
Timm Posted February 12, 2012 Posted February 12, 2012 Hmmmm ....What about... Half Ammonpulver, half 30/70 benzolift, and up to another half of regular black powder rocket-go? Something tells me you cant just average out all of the burning characteristics of the individual propellants according to their proportions in the final mix... Would the higher burn rate exponent of the Benzoliff "skip ahead" in a motor and blast out partially-burned propellant particles maybe..? Or could it be the beginning formulary of some awesome new rocket fuel nobody's ever tried? Know better than to rush out to the shop and start mashing stuff together, but would like to hear any thoughts on experience or theory... ...Everybody wants to juice up their one to three-pound rockets, right?
THEONE Posted February 17, 2012 Author Posted February 17, 2012 I have tried a mixture of ammonium nitrate sugar and potassium nitrate and it really fails (cooking method)... also it starts suddenly autoignition.... i do not know why...
gregkdc1 Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 Ok I will tell you what little I know about sugar and AN formulas. First I have never made a rocket with AN but I have plaid around with lots of different propellant formulas to see if I could get a decent burning propellant, I think it may be possible. -First basic aldose/ketose sugars react with AN so you have to use a sugar alcohol like sorbitol or xylitol. -The sugars dissolve in the molten AN making a very brittle propellant that wont bond to inhibitors, not a problem with an uninhibited grain. -You can make a standard KN/Sorbitol propellant and replace up to 20% of the KN with AN before it starts getting hard to ignite. -It is strange but mixtures that are almost straight AN will also burn. For some reason the mixtures with equal amounts of KN/AN have the hardest time sustaining combustion. -If you want the straight AN formula (85/15) to burn you have to use 1%NaCl as a catalyst. Also don’t use copper compounds as a catalyst. I was making a small test batch once and saw some brightly colored blue compound forming with decomposition. As it turns out this is a viable way of making tetra amine copper nitrate! -When the AN propellant burns it is extremely slow and turns into a puddle of bubbling glop. This melting may actually prove beneficial or detrimental to the functioning of a rocket motor, more on that later. The combustion is very clean with a faint yellow flame similar to what smokeless powder looks like when it burns. -You can replace some of the sugar alcohol with charcoal to get a propellant that slumps less. Also the charcoal actually seems to be a better fuel for AN. So my final formulation was as follows 85% AN, 9% charcoal, 10% xylitol, 1% NaCl. From the research that other people have done getting ammonpulver to work in a rocket and in a gun I am under the impression that the ammonpulver needs a large igniter to maintain its combustions. In a rocket motor I think you maybe able to get it to work by making an uninhibited grain with the AN propellant and then using a quick burning KN/sugar grain for the smoke/igniter grain in the top of the motor. The idea being that the AN propellant will need the flame from the igniter grain to keep its combustion going. Also the melting of the grain may prove to be beneficial in this configuration. When the AN propellant burns it is so slow that it is hard to imagine ever getting any useable thrust out of a motor made with it. The fact is that it melts faster than it burns so the molten propellant may slough off and be burned up in the motor casing increasing the burn rate. This is just theory and it has yet to be seen if the molten AN propellant will burn up in the motor or if it will simply be ejected. This is a lot to contend with if you are trying to make a motor. On the up side if it works you could theoretically make a rocket motor that rivals current APCP motors in power that would cost only a fraction of the price to make and wouldn’t need the exotic nozzle and casing material. P.S. You don’t know the meaning of the word hydroscopic until you make a propellant like I suggested. P.P.S. Sorry for the book.
dagabu Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) I think you meant hygroscopic, there is no word hydroscopic. Wow, that sure came off as an a** didn't it? Sorry, I just learned it a couple years ago from Mum myself. -dag Edited February 17, 2012 by dagabu
gregkdc1 Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 True , spelling was never really one of my strog points.
THEONE Posted February 17, 2012 Author Posted February 17, 2012 P.S. You don't know the meaning of the word hydroscopic until you make a propellant like I suggested. If you put theese grains into the motor directly when steel doesnt have absorve any moisture, and then you will put a air-tide plug to the nozzle you will be ok I tried this before with a NaNo3 based oxidizer witch is very soluble in water and hygroscopic and with this way i successfully storage it for 2 weeks...
MediumRare Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) Has anyone try it before ? also has any possibility to detonate ? Yes and yes. It is a safe rocket fuel. Very insensitive. Trust me. Edited February 17, 2012 by MediumRare
dagabu Posted February 17, 2012 Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) It is a safe rocket fuel. Very insensitive. Trust me. After a posting here some two years ago, I pressed a #1 all flash fuel rocket (nozzleless) and it flew (most of the way) fine with a LOT less thrust then I would have thought. I wonder if ammopulver would act the same way when pressed? -dag P.S. It was REALLY stupid making that rocket. Edited February 17, 2012 by dagabu
gregkdc1 Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Look at this guy’s rocket, and how it flies only when the igniter grain is burning. I am under the impression that a good hot flame and or pressure from an igniter grain is the key to getting a non-metallic AN formula to work. This coincides with what I have observed igniting the core of AN propellants with thermite, as well as what another guy found out when using ammonpulver in his rifle. He had to have a certain amount of smokeless powder to get the ammonpulver to go off. Obviously the guy in the video could have easily increased his kn to increase the pressure and burn rate.
Timm Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Aha!! ..What if one were to ram in the ammonpulver up to near the top of the spike (cavity former I guess, mandrel, whevr the kids are callin it these days..), then finish off the rest with good, hot BP? ..THAT might be the ticket, having a nice hot stream of solid-laden gasses shrieking past the ammonpulver grain section, in effect acting as a continual, high-pressure ignitor.. And if thats not enough, maybe a short section of BP-based propellant just above the nozzle, to give it good back-pressure? Does this make sense to anyone else? I suppose all i'm proposing is a substantial ammonpulver grain in the middle of a standard BP rocket motor, in hopes of gaining more altidude with the same size motor and tooling, without having to mess with R-candy. It might burn great, like a mini case-bonded bates grain setup, but with a progressive-regressive thrust curve.. Utilizing the lower BP section for higher initial thrust, helping things get moving... Hard to say, but its starting to sound good!
dagabu Posted February 18, 2012 Posted February 18, 2012 Aha!! ..What if one were to ram in the ammonpulver up to near the top of the spike (spindle)... Press this stuff, only pound BP. -dag
THEONE Posted February 18, 2012 Author Posted February 18, 2012 Aha!! ..What if one were to ram in the ammonpulver up to near the top of the spike (cavity former I guess, mandrel, whevr the kids are callin it these days..), then finish off the rest with good, hot BP? ..THAT might be the ticket, having a nice hot stream of solid-laden gasses shrieking past the ammonpulver grain section, in effect acting as a continual, high-pressure ignitor.. And if thats not enough, maybe a short section of BP-based propellant just above the nozzle, to give it good back-pressure? Does this make sense to anyone else? I suppose all i'm proposing is a substantial ammonpulver grain in the middle of a standard BP rocket motor, in hopes of gaining more altidude with the same size motor and tooling, without having to mess with R-candy. It might burn great, like a mini case-bonded bates grain setup, but with a progressive-regressive thrust curve.. Utilizing the lower BP section for higher initial thrust, helping things get moving... Hard to say, but its starting to sound good! A dual thrust motor...
gregkdc1 Posted February 19, 2012 Posted February 19, 2012 Aha!! ..What if one were to ram in the ammonpulver up to near the top of the spike (cavity former I guess, mandrel, whevr the kids are callin it these days..), then finish off the rest with good, hot BP? ..THAT might be the ticket, having a nice hot stream of solid-laden gasses shrieking past the ammonpulver grain section, in effect acting as a continual, high-pressure ignitor.. And if thats not enough, maybe a short section of BP-based propellant just above the nozzle, to give it good back-pressure? Does this make sense to anyone else? I suppose all i'm proposing is a substantial ammonpulver grain in the middle of a standard BP rocket motor, in hopes of gaining more altidude with the same size motor and tooling, without having to mess with R-candy. It might burn great, like a mini case-bonded bates grain setup, but with a progressive-regressive thrust curve.. Utilizing the lower BP section for higher initial thrust, helping things get moving...Hard to say, but its starting to sound good! Exactly! Also if you are planning on pressing this formula you could probably use fuels like sucrose without having it react like it does when making rocket candy; however from what I have seen charcoal is probably the best fuel to use with AN. You may also be able to add aluminum or other metals to the black powder that would normally have a hard time reacting with the AN to increase the temp and isp, I have noticed a considerable increase in the burn rate with a AN/silicone propellant and a thermite igniter grain. All of this is theoretical as I have only tested burning grains with nothing in a motor.
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