oldguy Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 Remember, I am a novice here, so don’t laugh to hard. Stars are either cut, rolled or pressed in a star plate. Has anyone tried to extrude a star composition the constancy of bread or pasta dough through an extruder? The thought being to extrude a dough like composition into a continuous round piece say a ¼, half or 5/8ths inch in diameter out onto plastic cutting board. Then use a cutter to slice it into 1/4, half or 5/8ths individual pieces. The reason I ask is, I bumped into a commercial dough extruder that is made from a thick tough hard durable acetal/derin plastic that will push out large dough batches with ease quickly. After taking it apart to look at the innards. It looks durable enough that it could withstand extruding compositions including up to around 30 mesh light weight metals. I realize getting the comp the right consistency would be an issue. But, I doubt the task would be impossible.
dan999ification Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 a similar idea has led me to believe not know that a comp that can be extruded will not stand up/keep its shape after you get past a certain size due to the weight and the fact it has to be workable thus soft, a boilie rolling table would be perfect for this but its not without its problems the comp would also have to be extruded first before rolling. sure you could probably make 1/4" stars no problem but you could roll them just as quick or cut them through a screen dan.
NightHawkInLight Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 I'm sure there are some comps that would work better than others. The binder used would make a big difference also. I don't know if you'll be able to end up with perfect cylinders after cutting, but it would be great to be proved wrong. If you could figure out a way to make 1" or larger diameter comets that might be something worth looking into.
Blackthumb Posted December 20, 2011 Posted December 20, 2011 I have pressed stars in an 8" tube and then pressed out the 'log' and cut it on a cutting board...seems to work well....have to work with consistancy issues but doesn't take much effort. Don't know why an extruder wouldn't work with a little fussin'. Keep us posted!
dan999ification Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 how is the dough loaded into the extruder and pushed through a die? putting enough pressure on the comp is also a concern if it works how i think it does.a modified mincer [ just the worm and the cutter ]would be able to churn out a hefty amount of stars. dan.
dave321 Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 ive always thought that extruding stars should be doable, but the composition would have to be optimised to allow extrusion. it would require an increase level of binder so that may have to be taken into account with the formula used. if you used resorcinol resin (aqueous) binder they could be hardened up by curing at about 30c,but the problem is with the amount of binder required to enable extrusion. maybe it could be thinned down with alcohol or acetone ? bottom line is it really worth it ?............. dave
dan999ification Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 the binder i thought would be best suited to get the consistency as i mentioned on ukps is powdered egg albumen, experimental but so is the method i dont know how it would behave as a fuel but it will certainly bind and is workable with powders similar to star comps in texture, i'll try to find a link for a rolling table and extruding gun. dan.
Mumbles Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 Experimental is not a word I'd use with egg albumin. I'd stick with archaic. That is what they used to bind some of the first stars and compositions. It's detailed in some of the much older literature up through probably the late 1800's to early 1900's. I think parlon would be the binder of choice. Alcohol can be mixed into the acetone/solvent to improve handling properties. It essentially forms a plastic mass, and dries pretty quickly. I think that would be the secret to them keeping their shape. Eric Hunkin's has talked about this on Passfire a few times, and some success he's had with the method. He extruded a long line of compostion, and then came back and cut it up. I bet a more traditional extrusion setup could be made where the composition is continually extruded and a knife or cutting off the stars. I don't think anywhere but china something like this would be economical though. Luckily as hobbyists we don't have to worry about economy.
drthrust Posted December 21, 2011 Posted December 21, 2011 (edited) every time i read this i think "play doh fun factory" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bptbVF9XETo Edited December 21, 2011 by drthrust
FrankRizzo Posted December 22, 2011 Posted December 22, 2011 Eric has hinted on Passfire that he worked at a mfg that created stars by extrusion. A post from a few weeks ago states: "We used an industrial meat extruder with a modified screw. Depending on the front plate and wire "scrubber offer" device on the front we could make any size star we wanted from granules or mouse turds to 1/2" diameter. If I remember right it was 3" in diameter and we could easily do 1000 lbs a day." Regarding Parlon stars: "I think if you are trying to get cylinders you might want to consider how we used to make parlon stars many years ago. We used a converted grease gun to extrude long lines of stars, when they were almost dry they were cut to length with a knife. Made very consitant cylinders." "We used a modified grease gun to extrude lacquer stars for years and years. The rubber seal was replaced with a viton one. Just extrude long beads on kraft paper and let them sits for a minute or two, then cut them to size."
dan999ification Posted December 22, 2011 Posted December 22, 2011 industrial meat extruder [MINCER]with a modified screw [WORM]. Depending on the front plate [DIE]and wire "scrubber offer" [CUTTER]device on the front sorry its the butcher in me www.gardnertackle.co.uk/products/guns/deluxe-sausage-gun they also make a table not unlike corrugatedsheets once you have extruded a line of bait you slide the table/sheets to form perfect balls. dan.
Peret Posted December 22, 2011 Posted December 22, 2011 Remember you have to clean the equipment afterward. That's not fun unless you use water soluble binders. It took me hours to clean up my star plate after pumping some shellac and alcohol stars.
Bonny Posted December 23, 2011 Posted December 23, 2011 I work in plastic extrusion and wonder why it has never really been tried on the hobby level. I think it could be made to work quite well. The screw design (feed rate/turn) and/or the die size would likely need to change for different types of comps, but I think you are onto something. Noodles and all kinds of other stuff are made by extrusion, but I think the amount of skill and tooling needed to make it work is beyond most hobbyists.
oldguy Posted December 23, 2011 Author Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) I work in plastic extrusion and wonder why it has never really been tried on the hobby level. I think it could be made to work quite well. The screw design (feed rate/turn) and/or the die size would likely need to change for different types of comps, but I think you are onto something. Noodles and all kinds of other stuff are made by extrusion, but I think the amount of skill and tooling needed to make it work is beyond most hobbyists. LOL, Bonny.....take a look at high end pasta makers for home use.You can often find them at thrift stores for around $20.A lot of the parts are very tough durable acetal/delrin plastic & easy to modify.Most will handle a 3 lb batch of dough like material & extrude it in diameters up to 3/4 inch, once you make or modify an extrusion orfice plate to suit. Edited December 23, 2011 by oldguy
Chuleo Posted December 23, 2011 Posted December 23, 2011 I once made extruded stars with a pastry bag. It is fairly hard to get the right consistency of your composition but it worked very well with conkling blue. Add a little bit to less water and the get hard to extrude. Add too much water and you'll en up with a sauce.Most compositions won't work very well. Maby it would work better with such kind of a thing. http://www.laboutiqu...ts/z_262630.jpgBut certain compositions are prone to fail.. e.g. stars with high charcoal content
Bonny Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 LOL, Bonny.....take a look at high end pasta makers for home use.You can often find them at thrift stores for around $20.A lot of the parts are very tough durable acetal/delrin plastic & easy to modify.Most will handle a 3 lb batch of dough like material & extrude it in diameters up to 3/4 inch, once you make or modify an extrusion orfice plate to suit. I was thinking more in terms of a screw powered extruder, rather than press or some other type...thinking big I guess. BUT, based on the ballmills you've made I think you need a big motorized extruder!
NightHawkInLight Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) I once made extruded stars with a pastry bag. It is fairly hard to get the right consistency of your composition but it worked very well with conkling blue. That's an interesting thought. I would like to see how stars would preform if they were made as rigged dots similar to these: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3218/3283913752_15c86877d6.jpg The increased surface area of the ridges would make for a faster burn and larger flame envelope of any comp used. It would also likely provide easier ignition with all the points and valleys to collect heat. If they were extruded on the inside of a bowl, they would end up with an inside curve that would fit nicely in a ball shell. You might also be able to produce cut stars using a nozzle similar to this: http://www.chirplikeacricket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/cupcakes-14.jpg Extrude one long line and dice it up as has already been discussed. You would end up with something similar to the inverse of a finocyl rocket grain, which would burn much more vigorously than a perfect cylinder. It might have potential to brighten up those slow and cooler burning stars that have great color but don't quite put out enough light for a nice effect. Edited December 24, 2011 by NightHawkInLight
californiapyro Posted December 24, 2011 Posted December 24, 2011 ive done the pastry bag method too, except no ridges. worked well, but i definitely think a plate is easier
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