Need help w/Super Bottle Rockets

[warthog]

Recently, I bought this set of tools (pictured below) from Steve M. Super Bottle Rockets are what they make. I also bought 1000 1/4" tubes of the proper length from Steve. The tubes a touch longer than the red ones from Pyrocreations or the other ones from say Skylighter or Pyro-Direct for a "regular" bottle rocket. I also found a window covering at one of the Big Box stores for $10 that was 30"x72" and is made f the sort of small, bamboo sticks you would find on a store bought bottle rocket. After I cut that apart and once I finish cutting the longer sticks into thirds, I believe I will wind up with more than enough sticks for the tube I have on hand now. I mocked up a rocket headed with a 7/8" plastic ball header, shown laying there on the ruler (scale is in inches) just to get an idea of what a finished one might look like. I also laid one of the tubes along side the spindle in the picture to show how deep the core goes and what sort of delay would be there for those not familiar with these tools or type of rockets.

Since I found out about these tools here, I am hoping that a number of you have been building them for a while now. I do have a press, 12 ton "H" frame Harbor Freight Hydraulic Bottle type, and a P2F with a 1000-5000 psi range. The tool kit has a brass reinforcing sleeve and an aluminum rod used to then push out the finished motor so I can press my fuels or hand ram them with my trusty raw hide hammer. I am also guessing the little scoop is sort of universal for both the nozzles and fuel increment as well as the top bulkhead, right?

I also just made a nice batch of Balsa Charcoal, and I have a lot more Balsa plus access to as much of this sort of scrap as I could possibly want. Is Balsa BP too hot to use as a fuel for these? How about adding metal to the fuel for some streamer effects? Will this still work in a BP that burns as fast as Balsa?

For instance I know I don't use it for lift as it burn too darn fast, at least in my experience, and can cause a tube to fail in a way that resembles a flowerpot. Feel free to lambaste me with whatever you wish, I haven't made a rocket in my life yet.

I have made wheel drivers, which I am told are close to making an end burning rocket though.

What other types of fuels? I know there are whistle types of fuel and that they are more able to lift heavier payloads but I am not much for the screech of such devices. Are there whistle fuels that I can use in these that aren't so screechy? Just for kicks, would you think these could be strobed r anything else fancy? Thanks for any help you all see fit to give.

Edited December 19, 2011 by warthog

[firebird]

Sorry I did not read your whole post but I will come back to it. Your last question about whistle though caught my eye . If you don't want the noise of whistle but would like some of the benefit simply run whistle all the way up the core then switch to BP at the top. At best you'll get a good whoosh maybe a little chirp then up it goes. Not loud at all but good power.

[nater]

There is a set of 4 articles in the PGI Anthology all about "Super Bottle Rockets" , including one on strobe rockets made on that tooling.

 

I have had no luck using balsa coal for rockets. I found it extremely difficult to work with since it is so light. Another member of our club also had trouble with balsa coal and says it doesn't produce as much gas as some types of coal which could limit thrust. On the flip side, a third member of the club is known to build very nice BP rockets and he uses balsa for part of the coal in his comp. So let us know what you come up with.

[warthog]

Won't have my Anthology for a while yet. My membership starts next month and I can actually save as much as $60 off of the non member price by waiting to buy it at the convention this summer. I may go ahead and get it earlier but probably not. I am sure to find those articles to be good ones though as I have now been pointed towards them some five times now. I guess I just need to wait and get those to know more about these things.

 

Thanks for the tip on whistle use Firebird. That is exactly the sort of thing I wanted to know since I have ben told these won't lift a 7/8" ball header without using whistle fuel. I can take a little chirp or some whistle noise but I really can't stand he SCREECH type sound you get from say and Saturn Missile Battery. Now and then as an insert in a shell is fine but not often nor do I like it up close like for a rocket launch.

 

I will let all know how the Balsa works when I am able to get it milled into the BP. If not Balsa, what sorts of BP have you found work best as rocket fuel for a little rocket?

Edited December 18, 2011 by warthog

[Col]

You might struggle to keep the pressure down low enough with a 12 ton press, 5700psi on a 1/4" id is barely a needles width on my PtoF gauge.

My rockets do ok with willow but i doubt they`d handle straight balsa without cato`s. The only sure way is to test a few and see what happens.

[warthog]

I have a lot of willow As well, that is what I use for lift for aerial shells. CATO's are what I am worried about with the balsa, I know fast it is so I sort of thought it might be more like making a firecracker than a bottle rocket if I used it straight. I still am not sure about the right pressure and all this but I have a chart and a bit of a "How To" on how to calculate what you want for what you are doing, Having never made one yet I guess I wil see how hard it is when I try it. All I have used it for so far is with a star plate to make uniform stars.

 

How about if I granulate the Balsa BP with only water first,no dextrin, so that it makes a soft granule that is easy to crush before I press it. Would this help solve the dustiness problem or help it to compact?

Edited December 19, 2011 by warthog

[dagabu]

If you are willing to do a little testing, try a nozzleless balsa BP motor BUT top fuse it, meaning that you want to pipe a couple strands of quick match all the way to the top of the spindle hole so the the fire does not light the bottom of the motor until the top is burning. This will make your hot BP about as fast as whistle and you should be able to lift that 7/8" shell with ease. Remember to limit the amount of delay above the tip of the spindle so that you dont get a round trip.

 

-dag

[warthog]

so the wrapped QM will light the top of the "core" rather than just sick a piece of match in there that essentially starts all of it at the same time, right? I am willing to give this a go, why not! Should be fun. No bottom clay at all... I will give this one a go once I get my Balsa BP made then. Once I get those flying properly with just a bit of Vit F on them I will give the 7/8" headers try and see what happens.

 

All I need to do now is get time out on the pyro-farm to try some of this out. I don't think I will be able to get out there un til after New Years though... at least I won't be able to get out there to make any of these until after the new year has begun. Between then and now I think any time I/we will have will be spent on making things for the NYE show that we already know we can make work.

[warthog]

One last quick question I have, what would the dimensions be for a label that fit around these like a commercial one would have?

 

I was thinking it might be nifty to make up a sheet of several of labels and put those onto some of these for my nephews when they come up for a visit. I have seen a number of nice labels that folks have made up in the gallery area here as well as a few on other websites. I freely admit to not being very good at math, like being able to know what I need to know to make the label for these rockets, If anyone can help me but needs some measurement or another, I would be happy to provide it, alternatively if I knew the formula to figure this out on my own with the measurements, I would be good that way as well..

 

Thank you for all of the help.

[nater]

Just cut a rectangle of paper as long as you want it, either as long as the tube or long enough to use for nosing around the nozzle end and wrap it around your tube, then cut the right width. Measure the rectangle, then you know the exact dimensions for your tubes and needs to print out more labels.

 

By the way, there's sample labels for the Super Bottle Rockets in the Anthology - it includes traditional, whistle, and strobe. Don't forget to dye the sticks red too, Dagabu made a post about dying them not too long ago. Your family is going to love the finished rockets!

 

edit:

 

The formula for the circumference of a circle is C=pi * d or 3.14 x the outside diameter of your tubes. This is how wide you need to make the labels to wrap all the way around the cylinder. You'll probably want to account for some slight overlap to make them lay down prettier.

Edited December 20, 2011 by nater

[warthog]

You know, I knew that formula. Guess I was trying to make it more complicated than it was in fact.

 

Thanks Nate, my sticks are already a nice, believable dark brown which I have seen on some brands of bottle rockets,

When I tried to dye some red, they just got a darker brown so I am not sure I can do much about the color of the sticks.

 

THANKS!

[nater]

I think we're all guilty of making things more complicated than they need to be. Funny your sticks got darker brown when you dyed them red. I like the finishing touches on consumer-sized devices, I bet they look nice when you're done, and I bet the 7/8" headers out-perfom everything in the same size at the retail stores.

[warthog]

Well, using the piece of paper method, I find the dimensions of a label for these little rockets to be 2.5" tall x 1.6" wide.

 

I've already got a few ideas for the labels too. I'll post them up once I finish them. Also I found some nice colored, tin foil at Hobby Lobby that works perfectly to wrap up the 7/8" ball headers. It is not at all expensive either so I think it will add a nice finished look to the finished product.

[warthog]

I did want to modify what I said about the sticks getting darker brown when I tried to dye them red. When I looked at them more closely in the outdoor light, what they turned was a reddish brown since they were already a rather dark brown to begin with and this looked like a darker brown under interior lighting. Just wanted to make myself clear on that point. In any case I think I will just leave them the brown they are now and call it good.

http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/bb9ae3512b03b5038536f5eccec94e48.jpg

 

still need to put the legalese into the box but it's a start...

 

never been all that good at this kind of thing though,.

Edited December 24, 2011 by warthog

[WSM]

I did want to modify what I said about the sticks getting darker brown when I tried to dye them red. When I looked at them more closely in the outdoor light, what they turned was a reddish brown since they were already a rather dark brown to begin with and this looked like a darker brown under interior lighting. Just wanted to make myself clear on that point. In any case I think I will just leave them the brown they are now and call it good.

http://picpaste.novarata.net/pics/bb9ae3512b03b5038536f5eccec94e48.jpg

 

still need to put the legalese into the box but it's a start...

 

never been all that good at this kind of thing though,.

 

Nice outer wrap! I had good luck with a 4:1:1 BP and a waxed clay nozzle for my first SBR's. I used the low-grade store-bought airfloat charcoal, too. For a non-whistling whistle mix try adding about 20% charcoal (80 mesh) to the whistle composition, and fine tune from there.

 

The only SBR's I've made that wouldn't lift a header were the strobe type (I can relate several entertaining failures while trying to, though !!!).

 

As for pressing, the twelve ton press will destroy the tools . Even the recommended 1/2 ton arbor press will cause problems if too much force is used. I think the required force is in the 300 pound range. I've managed to damage my tools and have to get replacements due to too agressive pressing with the small arbor press I use; so easy does it till you get familiar with the set and how it works .

 

I found I don't like to use the aluminum extractor bar, but use the brass drifts to push the finished rocket out of the sleeve, instead. When I used the extractor bar, it mashed up the end of the SBR tube so I quit using it. Using the arbor press, put the edge of the press ram on the edge of the brass sleeve (with one of the longer brass drifts in the top end of the finished motor) and gently push the sleeve off the completed engine. This is done with the nozzle end pointing up and the brass rammer end down (all inverse of when assembling the rocket).

 

SBR's are great good fun and are fairly safe since they typically use no more than 2-3 grams of composition at the most. Have fun .

 

WSM

[warthog]

I was going to be as gentle as I was able since the rams are brass. I figured they were likely to get mangled if I was too vigorous with them. I am looking forward to reading more about these, especially the strobe types, when I get my Anthology, Being a rocket newb, I thought these were a good start point being so small and since so little actual propellant is involved. Even when I CATO them it won't be a huge explosion, just a god loud pop.

[WSM]

I was going to be as gentle as I was able since the rams are brass. I figured they were likely to get mangled if I was too vigorous with them. I am looking forward to reading more about these, especially the strobe types, when I get my Anthology, Being a rocket newb, I thought these were a good start point being so small and since so little actual propellant is involved. Even when I CATO them it won't be a huge explosion, just a good loud pop.

 

The PGI Anthology has reprints of the Bulletin articles from about 2005, I think. Those articles help but a demonstration is better. If you are going to the Western Winter Blast in Lake Havasu, Arizona next February, a demonstration can be arranged (PM me).

 

WSM

[Juiceh]

http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/4291/1inchvs175inchheadersbr.jpg

1" (.87") header on the bottom. 1-3/4" (1.65") header on top one.

 

Bottom motor is loaded with Dan Thames "Whistle Super Fuel"(HP140C) formula, made with some slightly sub par NaBenz. If I recall correctly 3 or 4 increments of 76:23:1 Sally & Red Iron oxide fast whistle were used for the delay. Basically I pressed that delay until there was just enough room to slip the neck from the ball shell into the tube without touching the fuel grain. The ball has some Vitamin F in it. I don't recall how much by weight but it was about as full as you can get it.

 

 

The motor used to carry the 1-3/4" shell contains the same super fuel, however the first 4 increments are 76:23:.5 Sally & Copper Oxychloride very fast whistle to boost the performance substantially. Typically I make these with 2-3 increments of the booster fuel for the delay.

The rocket in this link is the same setup but was the first I made and boosted the core fuel with. Since it was while I was tuning the motors for max power it has only 2 increments of the booster fuel. I did not know how well this would work so I didn't add any extra delay in case it started to come back down. Only delay is just 2 increments of the core "Whistle Super Fuel" above the spindle which does not whistle. These have 10g of Vitamin F. The neck of the shells do not slip into the top of the NEPT tubes since mine have 1/4" time fuse holes. But the versions with the 1/8" fuse hole might. I rolled a tube of kraft paper to use as a coupler for the header to the motor tube and glued and taped it up well. Since these have a nice 10g charge I like to use 4 increments of the fast whistle booster to get them up there to a good height.

 

 

I use a 20:1 1-ton arbor press to press the SBR motors. I have a drive socket welded to the pinion of the press which I use to operate the press with an adjustable torque wrench set to break at 16.5 Lbs to give good consistency of ~6700 psi loading pressure.

 

I have some strobing SBR videos on my youtube channel. So far I've made white, red & orange. Strobe rockets don't seem to always make the popping sound in this small size. I've made 2 identical white strobe rockets side by side, one popped and the other didn't. I've even cut back on the whistle increments to extend the strobe core and that resulted in a strobing fish rocket that didn't even pop before going submarine and strobing under water.

 

Even when I CATO them it won't be a huge explosion, just a god loud pop.

You'd be surprised how loud a CATO is with these. I'd say they put most store bought firecrackers to shame, even if its just a BP motor you CATO. I had a strobe rocket CATO on me because I didn't press it hard enough. It was much louder than I expected. Edited December 26, 2011 by Juiceh

[WSM]

You'd be surprised how loud a CATO is with these. I'd say they put most store bought firecrackers to shame, even if its just a BP motor you CATO. I had a strobe rocket CATO on me because I didn't press it hard enough. It was much louder than I expected.

 

I bet! You burst a strong casing, you have a strong salute!!!

 

WSM

[warthog]

WSM - AZ is a bit out of my range of travel these days unfortunately. I love it there though and if I could find a way to move, I would be hard pressed not to move out there. I find myself more at home with the whole West way of life, Government go home and we will care for ourselves attitude than what I get here in the MidWest where everyone seems to want it done for them. But I digress... I agree that a little bit of instruction goes a lot farther than a lot of reading and I wish I could take you up on it.

 

Juiceh - Nice videos! You have brought these little guys to an art form. I know a CATO is going to be a boom not a pop, sorry if I made light of it.

 

I am sort of limited as to when and what I can do since I am only able to work legally out at a buddy's place and right now there is all that family in the way. Maybe when the holidays thin out a bit things will get back to a pace where I can get to work again. I have heard mention of the Super Whistle fuel a number of ties but when I try to find out how to make it through various searches here and at Passfire, I wind up with so much to wade through I just give up. Eventually I will chance across a formula with a little of how to make it and from there I will see what I can do. All of my contact with the stuff shows it to be what I want, a good lifting fuel that makes little noise and doesn't screeech.

[warthog]

Thought this would be nice to share with all, it has all the needed legalese and is ready for graphics, the fun part.

 

Once this is done, you only need to reduce it in size to 2.5" wide x 1.5" tall and they will fit perfectly around a Super Bottle Rocket making your "fall out" a lot easier to dismiss as commercial and taking the heat off of you should that be an issue. It should be easy enough for anyone to change the background color but then mind the text that is not in the box as it may need to be replaced to make it all look right.

[firebird]

Gary super fuel is NA Benz 76/23/1/3 with 5% added coal. Added in while wet.

 

[WSM]

WSM - AZ is a bit out of my range of travel these days unfortunately. I love it there though and if I could find a way to move, I would be hard pressed not to move out there. I find myself more at home with the whole West way of life, Government go home and we will care for ourselves attitude than what I get here in the MidWest where everyone seems to want it done for them. But I digress... I agree that a little bit of instruction goes a lot farther than a lot of reading and I wish I could take you up on it.

 

That is a long way to go. Maybe we can sit together at the PGI Convention, press some and go fly them . When they first came on the scene, Steve M. gave demonstrations at Winterblast & PGI, and those were better than any amount of reading; but the written notes and articles are a great memory jogger.

 

Sorry we can't sit together in February and share the fun .

 

WSM

Edited December 27, 2011 by WSM

[dagabu]

I have a label that can be used as well if you wish. The black space on the right side is for overlap so that all you have to do is print for the height and wrap it around the rocket and stick starting on the black section.

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/black%20cat%20lable_1.jpg

 

 

-dag

[Mumbles]

You know guys, those labels would be more realistic with more spelling errors and awkward grammar.