Demolitions work

[KuzkinaMat]

I am a chemistry enthusiast on track for an eventual masters degree if not PhD in chemical engineering. My area of particular interest is the chemistry of energetic materials, from fuel/oxidizer mixtures to nitric esters to nitramines to exotic and complicated cyclic azole salts. I am somewhat hampered by the legal issues surrounding independent experimentation in these areas. I've been hassled by the bomb squad before, even though there were no actual energetic materials involved. My guess is that someone saw the exhaust from my homemade fume hood and assumed that my premises were on fire. When the fire department asked for an inventory of the chemicals I had on site, all it took was the mention of potassium permanganate, which I used for titrations and not flash powder, and "Special Services" arrives and confiscates the potassium permanganate, the sodium nitrate, the sulfuric acid, the sodium hydroxide, the 30% hydrogen peroxide, the concentrated hydrochloric acid, the urea, the acetone, the toluene, the methyl ethyl ketone, the hexane, and even my copper sulfate solution that had already produced a 7 centimeter long, 4 centimeter high, nearly perfect crystal (which I estimated would have nearly tripled in volume by the time the solution evaporated). All of these were packed up in their van and "disappeared," leaving me with only sodium hypochlorite bleach and concentrated ammonia solution (ironic, is it not?). I imagine I would not have been hassled so severely were I a licensed demolitions expert, a career I would have no problem pursuing if it allowed me to research in peace over the weekends.

 

So, with that rambling, possibly even arrogant, introduction out of the way, I have a few questions. What steps must one take to become certified to practice rock blasting, building implosion, and similar civilian uses for energetic materials? What companies do the most work in these areas? Do they require a bachelor's of science in chemistry or engineering, or is there only a certification process to ensure the applicant isn't functionally incompetent? Does this vary by state (America) or province (Canada)? Is there a lot of competition for these positions? Are there countries (other than corrupt failed states) with a high demand for such work, and is the process of certification necessary in such countries? I'd rather not move to Nigeria, Iran, or China, obviously. I hear Australia's big on mining. Do they do a lot of rock blasting to get at the iron and copper deposits, or is it pressurized gas fracturing or old-fashioned hammering with a hydraulic piston?

 

Is this the wrong forum for these kinds of questions? If it is, I'll quietly fade away and continue Googling.

Edited December 18, 2011 by KuzkinaMat

[oldguy]

What steps must one take to become certified to practice rock blasting, building implosion, and similar civilian uses for energetic materials? What companies do the most work in these areas? Do they require a bachelor's of science in chemistry or engineering, or is there only a certification process to ensure the applicant isn't functionally incompetent? Does this vary by state (America) or province (Canada)?

 

This should probably be in the "HE" section. But, I will try to give you a few pointers here.

 

If you are in the USA, contact your State Fire Marshal about licenses & permits.

 

After 9/11 licensing, permitting, possession and use became a lot more stringent.

 

Read this link : http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

 

Manufacturing energetic materials is one thing, putting them to use is another completely separate thing.

 

There are places like the following link, where you can take classes.

 

http://www.esracorp.com/blast.htm

 

Quarry, excavation or contour type rock blasting, building implosion and other civilian use requires considerable hands on experience. My experience began as a "powder monkey's" helper, then the military, then a degree from a recognized "School of Mines", then with major mining companies, then major companies that do drill & shoot tunnel work, in house or contract quarry work, contour blasting for site or road construction, blasting for pipeline construction, etc, etc, and/or all sorts of differing types of structure demolition.

 

Blasting "rock" in place has all sorts of rock mechanic nuances. Structure demolition can be very complex X 100 over that of rock.

 

It is not an easy game to gain experience in.

 

Edited December 18, 2011 by oldguy

[KuzkinaMat]

This should probably be in the "HE" section. But, I will try to give you a few pointers here.

 

If you are in the USA, contact your State Fire Marshal about licenses & permits.

 

After 9/11 licensing, permitting, possession and use became a lot more stringent.

 

Read this link : http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5400-7.pdf

 

Manufacturing energetic materials is one thing, putting them to use is another completely separate thing.

 

There are places like the following link, where you can take classes.

 

http://www.esracorp.com/blast.htm

 

Quarry, excavation or contour type rock blasting, building implosion and other civilian use requires considerable hands on experience. My experience began as a "powder monkey's" helper, then the military, then a degree from a recognized "School of Mines", then with major mining companies, then major companies that do drill & shoot tunnel work, in house or contract quarry work, contour blasting for site or road construction, blasting for pipeline construction, etc, etc, and/or all sorts of differing types of structure demolition.

 

Blasting "rock" in place has all sorts of rock mechanic nuances. Structure demolition can be very complex X 100 over that of rock.

 

It is not an easy game to gain experience in.

 

 

I see. You have my thanks.

 

/"powder monkey?" I'm not sure what you mean.

[Arthur]

Your entry at a high level into commercial blasting would be hampered by lack of "engineering materials" experience on building materials and rock strength. (which is more architecture or building science based).

 

Somewhere in your country (you don't say where) there is likely a civilian research lab that would employ people doing just what you want -research into new HE products for military and civil applications, Complete new ranges of materials have come out this decade which MUST have been developed somewhere. Your real task is (with your uni careers people to be absolutely certain that you have found that research place and tailored your studies to get accepted there for your masters or doctorate. You will need perfect security clearances so keep your nose clean!

 

You can have all the permits to use HEs without acquiring any rights to make them.

[oldguy]

"Powder Monkey" = slang for a person who works with explosives.

 

AKA.......Shot Boss, Blasting Boss, Master Blaster, etc.

 

The inexperienced don’t ponder a lot of things involved in blasting.

 

Pioneering in big quarry shots can involve USD $100K in site preparation, $250+K in drilling costs & another $100+K in wiring, detonators, boosters & explosives. Not to mention administrative, safety, state county or local permitting & insurance costs.

 

Everything has to be RIGHT from beginning to end result. If not, you can waste every dollar invested, plus the huge cost of correcting it all, once a blunder of that size has been made. The “Shot Boss” is the responsible party. It is his decision to make and his finger on the button that detonates the shot. That is a LOT of responsibility to bear.

 

Imagine a 5 acre size quarry shot all wired and ready to go. At the 1 minute warning siren, a small herd of deer bolt out of the adjoining brush and run straight across the top of the shot, tripping over, pulling out and tearing apart the wiring across the length of the shot. Things like that take a calm demeanor, steady hands and a lot of expertise to make right. That happened to me once

Edited December 18, 2011 by oldguy

[Mumbles]

I've looked into this too. I have a masters degree in chemistry, and am working toward the PhD. If you want to do mining, excavation, blasting, demolition, etc. unfortunately academics is not the right route. You would think there would be some degree of engineering or science involved in these fields. There is, but it has nothing to do with chemistry. Any guy off the street can mix the pink stuff with the white stuff in order to fracture some rocks, or take down a building. It however takes extensive knowledge of geology, building materials, rock structures, etc to accomplish what you want. A school of mines such as the ones in Colorado or Missouri will probably be your best bet. I've looked into the curriculum. I think there is 1 class on the explosives themselves.

 

If you want to do research into high energy materials, there will be no at home side experimentation. The places that do that kind of work do it for the government, and they don't take kindly to that kind of stuff. Too much of a liability, plus the legal issues. In the US there is a high explosive manufacturing license. Despite the name, no one with said license should ever be caught dead actually doing it. It's a quick way to lose your license and get thrown in jail despite being technically allowed. For this sort of thing most civilians who get into this line of work do so through the contract defense industry. They're technically private companies who do research for the government and military on explosives, propellants, etc. I've heard that a military background can assist you in this regard. There are certain university research groups that work on this sort of thing to. They mainly develop and research new high energy materials. They rarely solely focus on this line of work though. If you look at some recent papers on the matter, youll see who does this sort of work. One of the more famous ones in the amateur pyro community, Phillip Eaton from the university chicago, unfortunately has recently retired/become emeritus. He developed cubane and several other highly strained molecules. He also was the person who developed octanitrocubane, the worlds theoretical most powerful non-nuclear explosive. Despite making this on money from the military, most of his research career focused on the highly strained side of things, not the explosive side of things. Other groups who do this happen to be fluorine chemists.

 

As a fair warning, some of these places may be more interested in people with a real chemistry background with research experience. Every school is different, but the one I attended (quite good at chem and chemE) did not have a strong emphasis on the science of chemistry in the engineering program, nor did they push academic research for them. Being able to calculate how to transport 10,000 gallons of hot ethylene glycol wont do you any good when it comes to actual research science and development.

[oldguy]

Very true what Mum says.

I would not doubt I loaded & shot a mile long box car train load of HE, long before I ever even made my first little 200 gram batch of BP myself.

 

Below are links to great institutions in the feild.

 

http://www.mtech.edu/academics/mines/

 

http://www.mines.edu/AboutMines

 

http://www.mines.unr.edu/mackay/

[chuck45]

I would also forget about Australia if you want to do synthesis. Yes we have a large mining industry, but even the most qualified people here know nothing about making energetic materials. Even some of thier HE knowlege is questionable. I had a "professional" blaster (shotfirer) tell me that C-4 is nitroglycerine based. His sidekick and himself also informed me that a toilet roll sized PETN (he called it PTEN) booster would literally vapourize an entire car, engine block and all. Hmm....right. They seemed to genuinely beleive what they were saying. They don't seem to know VoD's, detonation wave behaviour, sensitivity and the like. It's like they read the manual on earth moving, memorise how to do it, but never understand the why and how.

 

I think it comes down to lack of broader experience with HE's, and the fact that they only shoot in boreholes, never in the open, ie; bridge demolitions and the like. You will never be able to make HE's for at home type research here, and will have to put up with so called "experts" telling you all sorts of Hollywood BS.

 

Most of them do it for the money, not because they have a particular talent or liking towards explosives.

[Arthur]

Some unis in the UK will almost certainly get you an interview for Ministry of Defence type work, it's how they get their students work! I fully expect that there are Unis in the USA that have similar contacts, but it's up to you to sort out which ones, then apply to them.

 

The trouble often is that most research is "publish or die" most military research is "publish and die" so many places will not publish their research if it's of interest to the military.

[oldguy]

I had a "professional" blaster (shotfirer) tell me that C-4 is nitroglycerine based. His sidekick and himself also informed me that a toilet roll sized PETN (he called it PTEN) booster would literally vapourize an entire car, engine block and all. Hmm....right. They seemed to genuinely beleive what they were saying. They don't seem to know VoD's, detonation wave behaviour, sensitivity and the like. It's like they read the manual on earth moving, memorise how to do it, but never understand the why and how.

 

I think it comes down to lack of broader experience with HE's, and the fact that they only shoot in boreholes, never in the open, ie; bridge demolitions and the like. You will never be able to make HE's for at home type research here, and will have to put up with so called "experts" telling you all sorts of Hollywood BS.

 

Most of them do it for the money, not because they have a particular talent or liking towards explosives.

 

Sounds like those so called "professionals" were either pulling your leg, or were simple hourly labor that help load shots, rather than in anyone in charge. To do borehole type quarry shots correctly, safely and cost effectively requires a lot off skill and experience. Otherwise all sorts of very costly or dangerous mistakes can happen.

 

Some rock quarry type shots specify relatively fine fragmentation, (as once shot), the fragmented rock will be fed to rock crushers and a screening plant to produce smaller grades of gravel for some specific purposes. So you want the end result to create pit run rock that will easily fit into the specific size jaw crusher used on the head end of the rock crushing plant on site. If it's to large (over 14 inch minus for instance) to fit in the initial jaw crusher, it is of no use and must be set aside as waste.

 

In other instances the shot "spec's" may call for as much "riprap" size rock as possible. Ranging in size from 2 feet to 8 feet in diameter for some specific purpose.

Skilled experienced professionals can do either or a mix of anything in between. An inexperienced novice could not.

 

Anyone interested in getting into blasting should start by purchasing a newer copy of this book, then learning its content.

 

 

EDIT to add a link to other books:

http://www.blasterst...om/books_1.aspx

Edited December 19, 2011 by oldguy

[dagabu]

Looks like you all crossed into HE, I think it's time MUM moved this to the proper place.

 

-dag

[chuck45]

Hey oldguy. These blokes were dead serious, and this was on a training course I did for blasting LOL! Yes, I am quite sure though they would not have any place in choosing shot design etc. I think they were just loaders, but still, they should know what they are handling. They probably use that BS to try impress people all the time.

 

You are certainly right about required skill for fragmenting rock, getting the right powder factor is a skill that takes a long time to develop. I viewed a couple of shots whilst at the quarry/mine, and it was amazing. Ten tonnes of emulsion, no fly rock. Perfectly and consistently fragmented. Beautiful.

 

I was just disapointed that the loaders were dumbasses. Thought they may be "enthusiasts" lol.

[NightHawkInLight]

I was just disapointed that the loaders were dumbasses. Thought they may be "enthusiasts" lol.

 

I run into that sort of thing all the time, in many different circumstances. From people telling me that dynamite needs confinement to explode because they threw a stick in a fire once and it only burned, to salesmen in specialized stores knowing less about how their products are made or what they contain than I do. I'm not sure if making fireworks increases mental capacity and an interest in learning the details of everything, or if people that make fireworks are generally more interested to begin with. What gets me every time is when I ask a question about a product and receive the response, uh...well, what is it you're trying to do? Granted, half the time I ask questions I know they won't have a clue about, but it sure would be great to be surprised once in a while.

[chuck45]

Interesting insight Nighthawk. I think people who are into fireworks have a more inquisitive nature to begin with. Those that stick with the hobby expand their knowledge greatly.

 

People who just want instant "boom" and don't care how, never stick at it and certainly never gain an in depth understanding. As we move further into the age of instant gratification, I think this becomes more common, with alot of the old arts and crafts falling into unpopular status. Quite sad, but I'm proud to be one who keeps true pyrotechnics alive. These days people in my country get called a pyrotechnician just for lighting fuses at displays, what a joke! They have no idea of the true nature of pyrotechnics.

[PersonGuyDude]

I've been hassled by the bomb squad before, even though there were no actual energetic materials involved. My guess is that someone saw the exhaust from my homemade fume hood and assumed that my premises were on fire. When the fire department asked for an inventory of the chemicals I had on site, all it took was the mention of potassium permanganate, which I used for titrations and not flash powder, and "Special Services" arrives and confiscates the ...... All of these were packed up in their van and "disappeared," leaving me with only sodium hypochlorite bleach and concentrated ammonia solution (ironic, is it not?). I imagine I would not have been hassled so severely were I a licensed demolitions expert, a career I would have no problem pursuing if it allowed me to research in peace over the weekends.

 

 

I would suggest in the future remaining silent when dealing with the authorities, as well as denying entrance onto your property without correct warrants... Lesson learned though I guess.

Remember that you have no obligation to provide police, bomb squad, or the fire dep. with any information whatsoever. Sounds to me like your property was illegally seized, I would personally try to get it back, but I doubt that will ever happen...

[KuzkinaMat]

Interesting insight Nighthawk. I think people who are into fireworks have a more inquisitive nature to begin with. Those that stick with the hobby expand their knowledge greatly.

 

Or burn down their house.