Fusing

[pyrothrust]

where do most of you attatch the fuse and how?. I randomly came across info at skylighter that said to light the fuse through a hole in the side of the casing at the base of the comp. since doing this my CATOS have stopped. previously they blew apart at the top of the spindle where the fuse was pushed into. Also do you add clay to the top of the comp on whistle . I have seen articles saying that you do. but my believe is that their is no need too.

[Algenco]

I tape the fuse so that the tio is touching the bottom edge of the comp

Clay bulkhead on top prevent fuel from being blown out the top insuring max altitude , with a header drill a small passfire hole through the clay near the edge

[dagabu]

where do most of you attatch the fuse and how?. I randomly came across info at skylighter that said to light the fuse through a hole in the side of the casing at the base of the comp. since doing this my CATOS have stopped. previously they blew apart at the top of the spindle where the fuse was pushed into. Also do you add clay to the top of the comp on whistle . I have seen articles saying that you do. but my believe is that their is no need too.

 

This may be one of the most interesting questions since the variety of answers is so wide.

 

Lets dig right in:

 

If you are lighting an end burner with a very small amount of fuel exposed to the fuse, cheap green 2mm Chinese Visco works well to get the fuel going.

 

Core burners such as metallic fueled, most BP and other slower fuels along with long spindled rockets and most rockets with nozzles (clay) can be lit indiscriminately with blackmatch, piped match, visco or even e-matches anywhere from the end of the nozzle (touching the fuel grain) all the way to the top of the spindle hole with great success.

 

When you encounter a CATO (known in the military as a catastrophe at take off) as the fuel grain lights, you will want to pull the fuse out of the spindle hole and bring it back to the rearward portion of the fuel grain just above the nozzle. If the rocket CATOs again, the fuel is too fast burning for the nozzle -or- the tube is not strong enough -or- the tube was cracked or broken while pressing or pounding.

 

When is comes to whistle, there are a couple unwritten rules that apply to fusing and nozzles. First, there are no nozzles on whistle rockets and second, there should not be any clay placed above the fuel grain in a whistle rocket due to fallout dangers. There are a wide variety of ways to fuse whistle but the method you outlined from Skylighter (actually Ned Gorski's method) where the visco enters the very bottom of the whistle fuel grain via a hole drilled through the side wall of the tube into the inner space of the tube and in contact with the fuel grain at the very bottom of the grain, is my preferred method.

 

I for one have changed the way I fuse all of my rockets to a hybrid of Ned's method where I drill the hole in the tube about 1/8" from the bottom and run visco up into the core and J hook the visco in the end of the fuel grain (non-whistle rockets) and then hot glue the fuse to the rocket motor body with about 1" left unglued. The standard Gorski method is used for my whistles but the fuse is again hot glued down to the tube body.

 

I hope this helps some,

 

-dag

[VintageRacer]

I too use the Nedski method of a hole in the tube wall just below where the fuel starts ( on a whistle motor ) This holds the fuse without any tape or glue. This works fine if you have some space at the bottom of the spindle. On tooling such as SLD's hybrid set, there's no room to drill a hole since the foot or base of the spindle is too short.

 

On BP motors I use QM only, with a visco leader. You want to light the whole core instantaneously, which visco won't do evenly. I cut my QM to be the length of the core, then slice the paper

wrap or sleeve at an angle every inch or so, without cutting through the blackmatch inside. I score the match casing on both sides, then crease or fold the match lengthwise so it slips snuggly in the core. This will light your core reliably and give you the quickest ignition.

 

You can leave the match out and tape over the bottom of the motor for safe transporting to your shoot site.

 

DanB

[Algenco]

Ned uses clay bulkheads on whistles, watched him make a bunch, but he has also developed a "tube buster" to blow the clay out and break the stick (s) away

[warthog]

Ned uses clay bulkheads on whistles, watched him make a bunch, but he has also developed a "tube buster" to blow the clay out and break the stick (s) away

 

That was pretty cool to see too. Here is his test of the buster at the Fall Festival:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxs2xUaxmsA

 

[ExplosiveCoek]

You can just put the visco in your whistle rocket like you would with a regular rocket.

 

If your rocket fails there's something wrong with your design/tube/press, not this 3mm piece of visco that gets blown out immediately..

 

 

 

You don't need a clay bulkhead either, that's why you're pressing delay fuel on top of your core too.

[dagabu]

You can just put the visco in your whistle rocket like you would with a regular rocket.

 

If you don't blow up your whistle rocket with core lighting, you have very wimpy fuel. Even NEPT tubes will not allow for core lighting with whistle fuels.

 

Also, Nedski told me that he only uses clay bulkheads where a specific timing is needed for lifting shells but only fuel is used for delay for *straight whistle rockets. Again, there will be a wide variety of answers to this question and a whole lot of various experiences to go with them.

 

-dag

 

LWS type

[ExplosiveCoek]

Ever seen those rockets of Dan Thames on a rocket stand in a delayed movie? The visco gets blown out waaay before the actual core starts burning.

 

I'm using the 76/23/1/3 fuel with air float Kbenzo and a helluva core in there. My 22mm (I think that's 2lb) rockets lift a 6'' ball shell.

So, I guess I don't have wimpy fuel.

 

Just good working methods, so I don't have to find excuses to explain why my rockets didn't work (again..and again).

 

Keep on dreaming, or show me a decent rocket.

 

 

You'll only need a clay plug if there is not enough delay pressed on top of your core, and I see no reason why one wouldn't pres any delay on it's core.

[dagabu]

Ever seen those rockets of Dan Thames on a rocket stand in a delayed movie? The visco gets blown out waaay before the actual core starts burning.

 

I'm using the 76/23/1/3 fuel with air float Kbenzo and a helluva core in there. My 22mm (I think that's 2lb) rockets lift a 6'' ball shell.

So, I guess I don't have wimpy fuel.

 

Just good working methods, so I don't have to find excuses to explain why my rockets didn't work (again..and again).

 

Keep on dreaming, or show me a decent rocket.

 

 

You'll only need a clay plug if there is not enough delay pressed on top of your core, and I see no reason why one wouldn't pres any delay on it's core.

 

Interesting that you have selected to enter into this conversation and now feel that you have to use a snippy remark to defend yourself. I actually know Dan personally, I talk to him on the phone, I have eaten meals with him, spent all sorts of time with his wife, (some of it in the Dog House) and am pretty sure I know all about him and his whistle rockets, how they are made and fused.

 

As far as descent rockets go, I have shared video of hundreds of them here, even more with good friends. Tell me what you want to see and I will show you all the video you want.

 

If the delay is dialed in to be so exact that a 10" ball shell goes off at exactly 6 seconds after ignition, one cannot use delay alone to pass fire to the fuse, the clay plug is then used to contain the 2" column of delay and is hand drilled to the delay comp. Otherwise, there is only 1.5 ID of comp and that will blow out upon ignition.

 

Oh, I do keep on dreaming, that is why I have CATOs, new fuels, new loads, new effects, the curiosity I have in developing new rockets will always have me sacrificing tubes to the pyro-gods.

 

Why don't you show us a J-hooked visco fused whistle rocket lifting that 6" ball shell? It may be that you need to put your money where your mouth is as well.

 

-dag

Edited November 18, 2011 by dagabu

[pyrothrust]

I have to say that I was very surprised that my CATO's stopped as soon as I moved my fuse to the underneath. while I had the fuse coiled over on its self It was blowing apart fairly consistently

[stckmndn]

From Fulcanelli Part I page one - "two workers given the same instructions, tools and materials more often than not will produce two very different results, proving that it is not so much the information which is important as it is that the worker have a "feel" for what he is to do."

 

 

I core light my bp rockets with "Quickfuse" from Cannonfuse with zero catos. I've been told this is impossible. Always remember Ymmv. Go with what is working for you.

Edited November 19, 2011 by stckmndn

[dagabu]

Always remember Ymmv. Go with what is working for you.

 

I'll second that

 

-dag

[Blackthumb]

....even if a trial doesn't work, we still have the sweet report, some smoke, and the desire to try something else......cleanup of course....but it's all fun

[ExplosiveCoek]

Interesting that you have selected to enter into this conversation and now feel that you have to use a snippy remark to defend yourself. I actually know Dan personally, I talk to him on the phone, I have eaten meals with him, spent all sorts of time with his wife, (some of it in the Dog House) and am pretty sure I know all about him and his whistle rockets, how they are made and fused.

 

 

It wasn't a snippy remark, it was just another argument to end the foolish belief of CATO'ing because the Visco was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

As far as descent rockets go, I have shared video of hundreds of them here, even more with good friends. Tell me what you want to see and I will show you all the video you want.

 

A working rocket with decent header, 3'' would be sufficient already . I've never ever seen one working rocket from you before, they always CATO or change into gerbs.

 

If the delay is dialed in to be so exact that a 10" ball shell goes off at exactly 6 seconds after ignition, one cannot use delay alone to pass fire to the fuse, the clay plug is then used to contain the 2" column of delay and is hand drilled to the delay comp. Otherwise, there is only 1.5 ID of comp and that will blow out upon ignition.

 

Not true either, my 22mm test rocket performed nice with 30mm whistle pressed on top of the core. That's not even 1.5 times the ID of the rocket. I do have to press more delay to get it to a pleasant hight for the 6'' though.

 

Oh, I do keep on dreaming, that is why I have CATOs, new fuels, new loads, new effects, the curiosity I have in developing new rockets will always have me sacrificing tubes to the pyro-gods.

 

Why don't you show us a J-hooked visco fused whistle rocket lifting that 6" ball shell? It may be that you need to put your money where your mouth is as well.

 

-dag

 

Sure, after new years eve. I'm not able to launch anything like that on a other day in the year.

 

To be honest, your the one who's always spamming useless comments everywhere (here, passfire). And still you always try to be a smart-ass, I really can't see why, especially after you've been told not to do so so many times.

 

Edit:

 

Yes failures are part of the hobby, but it's nice to have something dialed in and working sometimes to !

Edited November 19, 2011 by ExplosiveCoek

[dagabu]

Interesting reply, one of desperation I am afraid, filled with half truths and deceptive wordsmithing. I share both my successes and failures and share what goes wrong so others can learn from the experiments I do.

 

I hardly ever post on Passfire and when I do, it is mostly based on my opinion of something just like everyone else... Just like you in fact.

 

My rockets hardly ever CATO, I had one bulkhead blow out last month out of 40 launched and for an example of my rockets, here are two for you, one from this spring and one from 2009.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-fLoV7gHr8

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpPZk39bJeQ

 

And here an additional 2 rockets from just last month. I don't usually post these videos since they are shot from 1000m away with a fixed camera and there is a lot of background talk. We shot 80 rockets that night and had one CATO as the bulkhead blew out.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRXxzukCzE4

 

 

And yes, core lighting does CATO rockets if the fuel is hot enough, that is NOT just my opinion, it is the experience of many both here and over at Passfire. Interesting that you would publish such a statement, "And still you always try to be a smart-ass, I really can't see why, especially after you've been told not to do so so many times." as a smart a$ yourself. The only statement you made is that you are a hypocrite and is incorrect, you are the only one that has made that statement, please do a search and see for yourself.

 

It would be a joy to me and helpful to all rocketeers if everyone would post their method of fusing rockets, it would both be a time of learning as we share our experiences and may smooth the waters here somewhat.

 

-dag

Edited November 19, 2011 by dagabu

[pyrothrust]

since changing the fuse over to bottom ignition. my spindle length so far has increased by 8mm and they are zooming.

[Potassiumchlorate]

I have just made a few stingers and coreburners this far. Just BP types, since I don't own a press. I put in 5 cm of quickmatch into the core and then 10 cm or so of 2 or 3 mm visco. That's all. No cato this far with rockets done properly, but I do have a problem with balancing them.

[WonderBoy]

For whistles, I light the edge of the fuel grain. Previously, I used a tiny spot of hot melt on the inside wall of the motor tube to stick the visco to the tube, touching the edge of the fuel grain. I have switched to a similar method (I believe Dan T. recommended it to me) which is essentially the same thing, except using masking tape instead of hot melt. I prefer either of these methods over drilling into the tube out of pure simplicity, one less step. I can't find a photo of the end of one of my fused rockets, but here is a view from the outside: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/image/1038-4-on-a-4

 

For BP motors I simply "J" hook the visco into the core, just past the clay nozzle.

 

I almost always use a clay bulkhead because I like using slow burning BP based delay compositions which are not long enough to contain the pressure from core burn of the motor. Here is an example, it is the rocket from the photo above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ7DML3D8Ww

 

 

WB

[stckmndn]

Thanks David. Your contribution has been invaluable to those who have been paying close attention.

[pyrothrust]

Again I tried Four rockets last night on a new increased spindle length and it took 1600 gms of payload up without thinking about it. On one of the rockets I placed the fuse "J" hooked up the nozzle and it blew the tube instantly on launch at the same place the top of the spindle would have been . all the other were fantastic.

 

Many thanks to the guys who have PM'ed me back .

 

Regards

[dagabu]

For whistles, I light the edge of the fuel grain. Previously, I used a tiny spot of hot melt on the inside wall of the motor tube to stick the visco to the tube, touching the edge of the fuel grain. I have switched to a similar method (I believe Dan T. recommended it to me) which is essentially the same thing, except using masking tape instead of hot melt. I prefer either of these methods over drilling into the tube out of pure simplicity, one less step. I can't find a photo of the end of one of my fused rockets, but here is a view from the outside: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/gallery/image/1038-4-on-a-4

 

For BP motors I simply "J" hook the visco into the core, just past the clay nozzle.

 

I almost always use a clay bulkhead because I like using slow burning BP based delay compositions which are not long enough to contain the pressure from core burn of the motor. Here is an example, it is the rocket from the photo above:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ7DML3D8Ww

 

 

WB

 

 

What were the stars? I really liked the break, very clean and the charcoal was beautiful! I have some red stars that need a pistol like that to add to the effect.

 

Thanks David. Your contribution has been invaluable to those who have been paying close attention.

 

Thanks stck, pull the reigns in on me if I get too far off track here....

 

-dag

[WonderBoy]

Thanks Dag. I don't generally make ball shells, usually only cylinder shells, so I wasn't expecting much from it. They were 1/2" cut stars with willow BP on hulls 5:1, no booster. I made it at PGI and was running out of stars, so one shell half is:

 

Bushy Tail

Source: Mike Swisher/ rec.pyro

Meal Powder - 10

Potassium Nitrate- 7.5

Charcoal Airfloat- 6

Dextrin- 2

Sulfur- 1

Total= 26.5

Notes

Dampen well with ordinary tepid tap water, cut large (3/4'' - 1'') stars, dust

generously with home powder (75:15:10 sieved, doesn't have to be ball milled -

it is just to keep the stars from sticking to each other). Allow to dry ca. 3

weeks in a shady, well-ventilated place.

These stars burn fast and leave a bushy charcoal tail. They can be broken hard

 

The other half was my Spider formula, which is essentially the same as all of the other spider formulas, just rounded to nicer numbers, with a touch of extra sulfur, and with all separate components instead of using meal.

 

Spider web star

potassium nitrate- 55

charcoal commercial- 30

sulfur- 9

dextrin- 6

Total= 100

Notes

Ball mill 2 hours

½” cut stars dusted w/ green mix to keep them from sticking together.

 

[dagabu]

Cut stars too!?! Great idea, looks like I know what i am doing this winter

 

-dag