Whistles... need help

[pyrosailor99]

Hi all!

 

i've just tried to make a whistle.

 

Used 70/30 comp with Potassium Perch/Sodium Benzoate.

 

i mixed the comp roughly. at touch both chem was very fine powder.

 

i pressed some of the comp in a paper tube. after pressing the pipe was filled HALF.

 

i ignited it with some visco but i've not heared any whistle. just a very energetic orange flame that make a 'FFFFSSSSHHHH' with a little sound that seems like a wind in horror films (but i paid attention to hear this low sound).

 

how could i make very very LOUD whistle.

 

once upon a time i bought some little whistle rocket. i think diamter was about 15mm and long 10cm. when ignited the whistle was so loud that at a distance of 10m i was too surprised of the loud sound i heared.

 

can you help me?

[nater]

Do you have access to Passfire? Someone just started a thread on this same topic over there and I don't want to copy and paste other's posts.

[pyrosailor99]

sorry, i don't have access to passfire.

 

could you tell me if you had the same experience and what could be the problem?

 

PS. i want just make clear that actually i don't need a whistle rocket, but a loud whistle. i don't need it can fly or take some load in the sky. it's good for me (as this is the first time i experiment with whistle) to have a loud loud loud sound.

[nater]

sorry, i don't have access to passfire.

 

could you tell me if you had the same experience and what could be the problem?

 

 

I have never used whistle except for a pinch of dry mixed as burst booster. Now that my small press is almost finished, I'm going to try a few small ones. All the comps I've looked at use some sort of catalyst in addition to the perc and benzoate. You might want to do a little more research. Danny Creagan's site: http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/whistletests.html would be the first place I would start reading. He has posted his notes from various experiments and whistle fuels, with sound bites too.

[pyrosailor99]

ok, thanks for your suggestion

 

i already read that page, but in some other website (like pyroguide) i've read there is no really need of catalyist.

as i'm a newbie with this mix i thinked that in my first experiment i should listen at less a very low whistle that i could make loud making next pipe bigger and using a catalyst.

When i ignited and not heard any whistle i was a bit frustrated and i thought i made some mistake in making the whistle...

 

Actually i have Red Iron Oxide and i will try to use it as catalyst in my next experiment but i was expecting to hear something also with basic comp.

 

Anyway i've just seen some video where peopel test their Whistle comp on a paper piece and i've seen that the good comp is near the Flash comp. some gram burns with big energetic flash.

I tested some of my comp BEFORE my first experiment (and also tried to ram 1 gram on a stone just to test the shock danger i had) and i'm realizing that my Whistle comp is not like that i've seen in video at all.

My comp is really slower. yes it burns something quicker than plain BP meal... but a line of comp dont burn just in the same time!

 

So i think i have to grind better each chem of the comp (separately obviously!) and then mix.

[pyrosailor99]

just a question.

 

Could i grind Potassium Perchlorate and Sodium Benzoate (one at time) in a coffee grinder?

 

I would try very little batches and would avoid the ball mill....

[hillbillyreefer]

Yes a coffee grinder will work. It is preferable to use one grinder for fuels and a different one for oxidizers. Less cleaning and less chance of disaster.

 

 

[Mumbles]

Use two different coffee grinders. They're cheap, and it's not worth the risk. Keep one for oxidizers, and one for fuels.

 

I like using a catalyst, particularly Fe2O3 if I am going for just sound. Besides changing the sound, it also allows for you to tell when the mix is properly mixed. I think that is part of your problem. You said it yourself "i mixed the comp roughly. at touch both chem was very fine powder." It's possible that the composition was not properly integrated.

[PersonGuyDude]

Have you tried the wet solvent method? I almost never use whistle, but when I do it's for burst. I've noticed that with whistle you can hardly get it mixed by hand no matter how much time you spend.

Try mixing the two by hand real quick and then add acetone or naptha (I think this is what the pros use) and mix with a spoon until it is a thick slurry, let dry and break up carefully by hand.

[psyco_1322]

You need to make sure your fuel is very fine, like in an airfloat state. The KClO4 can be fine like most is when purchased, since its fresh out of a drum. I would suggest you load up your mill with some benzoate and about 1% red iron oxide and mill it for at least 12hrs. It will depend on how good your mill is at milling stuff down. The iron oxide will help with the loud sound you are looking for, while speeding up the burn rate.

 

Mix all the components by sieving several times, I would do no less than 3 times through a medium fine screen. The result should be a rather consistent light pink powder. Place this powder into a large zip lock bag, 1 gallon size works well since it has a lot of available mixing room.

 

You should really have a binding agent in there also, I would highly suggest the use of petroleum jelly, aka Vaseline. Use about 3% of the weight of the batch of fuel, so for 100g, add 3g of PJ. Dissolve it into roughly 30mL of warmed lacquer thinner. Cold solvent will take a long time to dissolve the PJ and will require lots of stirring. It works best to heat up some water in a large vessel and set your small container, containing the petroleum jelly and lacquer thinner, into the hot water. Obviously do this away from your heat source. Once its dissolved completely, dump the solution into your zip lock bag, seal, and knead thoroughly with your hands for several minutes. You should not see a lot of white streaks among the pink paste, that would indicate bad mixing and you should sieve the chemicals better next time, or use a finer screen.

 

Once your fuel is well mixed, you will want to open the bag and let some solvent evaporate off until the fuel reaches a good granulating consistency. Then carefully granulate the mix through your favorite screen onto a drying sheet of craft paper. It should be a coarse screen that the wet mix pushes through easily. Depending on your climate, drying times will very, but you should be able to smell the product and it should not have any scent of the solvent. Store the resulting dry powder in a zip lock bag, you can double bag it and add a desiccant for better protection.

 

This fuel should be good enough for any whistling devise, whether it be ground effects, inserts, or rockets. Pressing of the mixture into tubes using a hydraulic press with give you consistent burn rates and good burn stability. You should not ram this mixture under any circumstances.

[FlaMtnBkr]

The above post should make great whistle.

 

But your Na Benz has to be a fine powder or you won't get a whistle. I have tried milling coarse flakes in a good ball mill and have never been successful in getting it fine enough. Maybe if you dry the material in an oven set at 150 deg for a few hours to make sure all the water is gone it would work. But it always stuck to my jar and media in thick layers and just didn't work. It is much easier to just buy air milled material and you will get good results following the above process.

[pyrosailor99]

ok, thanks all.

 

but i have some doubt on the

Use about 3% of the weight of the batch of fuel, so for 100g, add 3g of PJ. Dissolve it into roughly 30mL of warmed lacquer thinner.

 

what is a Lacquer thinner? from wikipedia i could use Alchool+shellac...

 

this process seems to be longer than usually... and i have some doubt on what could happen when i press it. granules could leave air bags in the tube and i know that whistle mix quickly take to CATOs when the burning surface is not constant...

 

could i avoid mix dampening and mix in an empty jar on a ball mill (i mean WITHOUT ANY BALL in the jar)?

[Mumbles]

Tumbling it in a ball mill will probably never get it mixed well enough. I'd also be worried about static buildup. Vaseline provides absolutely no structural strength, and will compress just fine. If it blows up, it's not because it was granulated. Mineral oil may also be used, but also needs a solvent. I've heard of people binding with other things such as red gum or shellac, but it's typically not for things intending to actually make noise. More for breaking crossettes, or boosting shell breaks.

 

Lacquer is sometimes called paint thinner, or naphtha. White gasoline, which is used as a fuel, is also commonly used.

[dagabu]

Fun topic everyone!

 

From my own experiences, the day I spent with Steve LaDuke this last summer, conversations with Danny Creagan, Ned Gorski and others, I can tell you what does NOT work! LOL!!

 

Joking aside, the mineral oil, Vaseline and such is a phlegmatizer and is used to desensitize the mix and make it less sensitive to static and friction. It also helps the individual grains of fuel to bond more closely due to the lubricity of the phlegmatizer .

 

The fuel grain appears to be harder and absorbs much less water when 4% of a phlegmatizer is used. It also allows for a higher loading density according to some old snorts and therefore more available fuel to burn in the core.

 

From my own experiences, I find that the fuel is faster, noisier and more powerful if the phlegmatizer is left out but it absorbs lots of water and will not light with a torch in august at PGI on a drizzly day where the phlegmatizer bound rockets work just fine.

 

Also, I use Coleman camping gas to dilute my mineral oil in and I use enough to make a thick dough then press it through a 20 mesh screen and let dry. It makes little whistle-worms with little dust when scooped.

 

-dag

[FlaMtnBkr]

No need to doubt it as that is the most common way it is made. The petroleum jelly or oil helps the mix compress well, keeps dust down, and also stops (slows down at least) the mix from absorbing water from the air. Mixing the oil in a solvent allows the oil to be dispersed evenly and the solvent helps all the chemicals mix intimately.

 

Just open the container and let solvent evaporate until it is about like clay. Push it through a window screen and spread the granules on a sheet of paper to dry and then double bag it to store. The granules also make loading the tube easier than powder and again, helps keep dust down when pressing.

[pyrosailor99]

First good result.

 

grinded in a coffeegrinder the Na benz. ... mmmh it's like talk, but in my hand i feel there are many microgranules that easily pop in powder... but they are granules anyway...

mixed 70+30na benz.

added Red iron oxide (DOH, it wasn't grinded! i forgot to grind it with the benzoate...)

 

mmm... i feel granules are there... and rediron oxidegranules too...

i mixed very well and tried to break the granules passing the mix in a window screen and braeking remaining granules.

 

then... i tried to buy vaseline but my store had onyl 'Vaseline Oil' so i tried it.

As i read to liquify vaseline with a paint thinner... i thought that vaseline oil was already just liquid and so don't need paint thinner.

i added 4g to my 100g composiiton ... mmmh i hadn't a real dough... just many loose granules without dust. i went forward to test.

i not expected results as i knew that unmixed granules in the comp is a bad thing but after pressing in a 10mm diamter pipe i tested and... IT WHISTLED! yeah! not 100% of the time but i eared a decent whistle with a very big ORANGE flame! i was so happy i could cry!

 

i will try again with accurate comp. mix

 

just few question:

 

1. i have here a product called 'nitro paint thinner' . it is good for the scope?
2. should i add it also to vaseline oil?
3. how much vaseline oil add to the comp (4% is good)
4. instead of vaseline could i use OIL for car engines?

and at the end the most important question.

i've just built my pres with an hydraulic car elevator. BUT... it's so rough and actually i can't build anything to MEASURE the pressure or the force of the press.

so... HOW MUCH should i press the comp in the pipe. there are risks in overpressing or the danger is only on hammering the comp?

 

 

thanks all!

[Algenco]

First good result.

 

grinded in a coffeegrinder the Na benz. ... mmmh it's like talk, but in my hand i feel there are many microgranules that easily pop in powder... but they are granules anyway...

mixed 70+30na benz.

added Red iron oxide (DOH, it wasn't grinded! i forgot to grind it with the benzoate...)

 

mmm... i feel granules are there... and rediron oxidegranules too...

i mixed very well and tried to break the granules passing the mix in a window screen and braeking remaining granules.

 

then... i tried to buy vaseline but my store had onyl 'Vaseline Oil' so i tried it.

As i read to liquify vaseline with a paint thinner... i thought that vaseline oil was already just liquid and so don't need paint thinner.

i added 4g to my 100g composiiton ... mmmh i hadn't a real dough... just many loose granules without dust. i went forward to test.

i not expected results as i knew that unmixed granules in the comp is a bad thing but after pressing in a 10mm diamter pipe i tested and... IT WHISTLED! yeah! not 100% of the time but i eared a decent whistle with a very big ORANGE flame! i was so happy i could cry!

 

i will try again with accurate comp. mix

 

just few question:

 

1. i have here a product called 'nitro paint thinner' . it is good for the scope?
2. should i add it also to vaseline oil?
3. how much vaseline oil add to the comp (4% is good)
4. instead of vaseline could i use OIL for car engines?

and at the end the most important question.

i've just built my pres with an hydraulic car elevator. BUT... it's so rough and actually i can't build anything to MEASURE the pressure or the force of the press.

so... HOW MUCH should i press the comp in the pipe. there are risks in overpressing or the danger is only on hammering the comp?

 

 

thanks all!

 

 

you still need to mix the oil with laquer thinner, Coleman fuel, etc to get even dispersment

I ,like many others use mineral oil (baby oil)

[Mumbles]

Vaseline oil or paraffin oil are likely the same thing as mineral oil. I assume what you have in your possession is a liquid. It will work fine, but needs a solvent as have been recommended a few times to be fully and properly dispersed.

 

I don't mean this the wrong way, but is there any reason you keep trying to make substitutions and shortcuts instead of taking the advice as given? Seriously, just try petroleum jelly (vaseline) or paraffin oil (mineral oil) with a suitable solvent. No need to start playing with motor oil.

[psyco_1322]

Also, there is no need to go to a 4% addition of the oil, I really only use about 2% in my fuel for rockets, it helps to not slow the fuel down so much. 3% is just a good starting point for fuel for general use. You don't want to use motor oil, as Mumbles stated, try what has been suggested, I've made kilos of fuel with the method I have posted, and every rocket pressed performed beautifully, with no catos.

 

Coleman fuel works also, but its slow drying, if you add to much to the fuel, count on hours before enough evaporates for you to do something with your whistle slushy. Acetone is acceptable also, used it before. Lacquer thinner is not the same as paint thinner, paint thinner is usually mineral spirits and it is a lot more oily, LT is a decent strong solvent mix. I'm not sure what nitro paint thinner is but I would suggest you just stay away from things with nitro in their name either way.

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=ppwl&cp=10&gs_id=1&xhr=t&q=lacquer+thinner&qe=bGFjcXVlciB0aA&qesig=aR6IhWVTLdx54nfG5NW3XQ&pkc=AFgZ2tk7kTxuQrFYN1N8CClUeb0XHvursJ5XHzJNmq10Z-adxY2Xr73wn9hUM5LUzdnerh5r76UuIZjN76wEfsB2YsRSmeCaQw&safe=off&nord=1&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=685&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

[pyrosailor99]

i just discovered that my nitro paint thinner is exactly the lacquer thinner.

 

example

http://en.foerch.com/product.aspx?p=373dab37-9fc1-49ac-b824-cec7e3f19970&g=ccfc4594-c847-445b-b096-9fecda633d2b

 

it's not the thinner to have NITRO, but the thinner is for Nitro-paints and lacquers...

 

----

 

thanks for indication. i didn't know that Mineral oil is the BABY oil. i thought that mineral oil = motor oil...

 

actually i could not reach any paraffine oil or vaseline dough so i will try again with vaseline oil solved in my nitro-thinner.

 

i have also torch-oil with lemon-grass . i think it is based on Paraffine oil... but for the presence of lemongrass i think it's not suitable for my scope

 

 

----

 

what about pressing? do you have some suggestion to understand when to stop to pump the press?

 

what about pressing?

[psyco_1322]

There is no telling how much pressure you are exerting on the fuel with out the proper gauge. If you are serious about building some rockets, http://www.wolterpyrotools.com/ sells a quality gauge that should last you a lifetime. I own one and it works very well and is a must for pressing anything.

[dagabu]

Yes, you can buy Rich's PTF gauge or make your own for a lot less...

 

Danny Creagan has a tutorial HERE.

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/ptof/DSCN0058.jpg

 

 

-dag

[pyrojig]

Yes, you can buy Rich's PTF gauge or make your own for a lot less...

 

Danny Creagan has a tutorial HERE.

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/ptof/DSCN0058.jpg

 

 

-dag

 

That is a kick ass tutorial! I made one of those a year ago, and it rocks! Cheap , effective , and easy to make! You just have to print out a pressure sheet to reference to when pressing diff. dia rockets to make it simple to get your accurate pressures. Good stuff!

[pyrosailor99]

Yes, you can buy Rich's PTF gauge or make your own for a lot less...

 

Danny Creagan has a tutorial HERE.

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/ptof/DSCN0058.jpg

 

 

-dag

 

yes i just know about hit tutorial, but that main piece is not available in my country at less than 450USD and ordering it on harborfregiht would cost me (shipping incl) about 420usd (if they could ship to me, but they don't. i'm not in USA)...

just too much actually...

Edited November 13, 2011 by pyrosailor99

[californiapyro]

i know this might be frowned upon but I go by tube bend. like when the tube starts to go outward a little I stop. my tubes are thick walled and it seems to give good compression.... thoughts on this?