rolling parlon stars?

[TheArchitect23]

just made up my 1st batch of green parlon star mix.

good thing i was out of acetone and stopped, because i just realized i believe i read somewhere that rolling parlon stars was a pain in the butt.

good a time as any for some questions.

any advice for rolling these?

 

is it better to cut the stars first? then prime in star roller?

or

Would it be fine to just roll them as normal.

 

my star roller is a 2.5 gal hdpe bucket on a 3/4'' lag bolt drive.

acetone melt my barrel?

[Seymour]

HDPE will not be affected by acetone.

 

Rolling stars using acetone as a binder is certainly possible (I've done it) but it certainly is a pain in the but!!

 

The "success spot", where there is enough solvent to work, but not so much that they fuze together seems fairly narrow, and keeping it within this band is made harder by the fact that the acetone is constantly evaporating, and depending on the temperature, I mean REALLY evaporating. You can also get unwanted water content as the evaporating solvent cools the locality bringing on condensation. I've even had ice.

 

So you also need to take precautions based on the new flammable vapor risk! (I hand rolled outside).

 

Also, acetone often dissolves parts of sprayers. Rubber seals and parts of the atomizing mechanism especially seem prone to solvent death. While acetone proof sprayers exist, I just added the solvent from the bottle (carefully).

 

If you are going to persue it, I suggest adding 10% IPA or other alcohol to reduce the notorious "stringey stickeyness" of the parlon.

 

However, at the end of the day, I just suggest cutting them if you use acetone, and to roll them, just modify the composition to use Dextrin or your favoured water activated binder.

[Potassiumchlorate]

I have rolled parlon stars with acetone. By hand it's a hell - 100 12 mm stars took an entire day. With an improvised roller it "only" took a few hours, but lots of the composition got stuck in the jar.

 

According to David Bleser it should be possible to roll them in a machine roller without too much trouble, but I think I will cut mine anyway this year.

 

Though in my heart I'm a perfectionist, so I would like to roll them.

[Mumbles]

It may seem like blasphemy to some, but have you considered using the archaeic and nearly obsolete binder once known to the elders as Dextrin?

[Algenco]

I roll "Parlon" stars with dextrin, even stars with strontium nitrate

[Potassiumchlorate]

It may seem like blasphemy to some, but have you considered using the archaeic and nearly obsolete binder once known to the elders as Dextrin?

 

Sure, but then you must use MgAl instead of Mg for metallic stars. But like I said in another thread, I'm considering to abandon metallic fuels or at least cut down on them. Blue stars don't need metals and barium chlorate stars with shellac are pretty light intense without any metal fuel.

[Potassiumchlorate]

I roll "Parlon" stars with dextrin, even stars with strontium nitrate

 

I rolled Electric Magenta with dextrin 1½ years ago. Since it contains MgAl and not pure Mg they still work fine. And strontium nitrate stars will dry if the relative air humidity is below 77%, even if it takes some time.

[allrocketspsl]

use gary smiths method,easy but when you push them throung the screen have them drop into the prime in your big bowl, after they are all free of the screen start rolling them,youll get perfectly round stars if done correctly.When I mean roll them I mean have them drop into a large bowl thats deep and about 18 inches across then hand roll.Youll be amazed how they size up all about the same size because they went through the mesh screen and you have controlled the thickness when rolling out the patty! ALL

[Potassiumchlorate]

One irritating thing with parlon stars is that they often burn with lots of smoke and residue. Some might think that smoke traces are cool, but myself I prefer a "clean" burn.

 

The great advantages are:

 

1. Extremely short drying time; ½ hour or so at room temperature and low air humidity.

2. Protection of pure magnesium against chlorates and perchlorates (except ammonium perchlorate) without any coating with paraffin or linseed oil etc.

[Mumbles]

If you search around here, there is a gentleman named Swede that actually showed that parlon does indeed protect magnesium from ammonium perchlorate. There are videos.

 

I've been somewhat suspicious of Shimizu's tests. If you look his starting water, and all the solutions were somewhat acidic. I wonder how reactive they would have been with neutral solutions. I suppose they're all electrolytes, which are bad for Mg, no matter what the pH is.

 

Except for effects requiring Mg, such as AP strobes, there really are relatively few reasons to not use MgAl to me. I even get Magnesium much cheaper, but it's not worth the hassle. PotassiumChlorate will disagree with me on color purity. To me you're either going to be making blindingly bright stars, where color purity is partly diminished, or you're making cooler colors. A bit of metal can brighten them up, but it's in such a small amount the maybe 2-5% metal isn't going to make a difference no matter what it is.

[dan999ification]

I roll "Parlon" stars with dextrin, even stars with strontium nitrate

 

 

so whats evry ones thoughts on rolling veline colour stars, i thought the parlon was a nescasary chlorine donor, can i leave it out? up the perc? it would be ideal if i could roll them without the fumes of acetone, ive just started hand rolling and i really like how hard the stars get and how quick they dry especialy c6 and tt, ive tried the rolling in prime method with rg3 does round them off nicely but i enjoy using de or other stars as cores.

 

dan.

Edited October 18, 2011 by dan999ification

[Potassiumchlorate]

If you search around here, there is a gentleman named Swede that actually showed that parlon does indeed protect magnesium from ammonium perchlorate. There are videos.

 

"Swede" sounds trustworthy to me. I have seen some of his posts. I'll check out more of them.

 

I've been somewhat suspicious of Shimizu's tests. If you look his starting water, and all the solutions were somewhat acidic. I wonder how reactive they would have been with neutral solutions. I suppose they're all electrolytes, which are bad for Mg, no matter what the pH is.

 

Shimizu was undoubtedly a great man and probably the greatest in pyrotechnics ever, but no-one is unfailable. I, too, noticed that he made the solutions acidic to "provoke" the metals to react.

 

Except for effects requiring Mg, such as AP strobes, there really are relatively few reasons to not use MgAl to me. I even get Magnesium much cheaper, but it's not worth the hassle. PotassiumChlorate will disagree with me on color purity. To me you're either going to be making blindingly bright stars, where color purity is partly diminished, or you're making cooler colors. A bit of metal can brighten them up, but it's in such a small amount the maybe 2-5% metal isn't going to make a difference no matter what it is.

 

I agree fully that blue colours are washed out with more than 3% Mg. I agree partly that barium chlorate based green colours are washed out with more than 12% Mg. I'm not sure if I agree with you on red, though. I do disagree that you need AP to get good red colours with strontium nitrate. I can't see that the potassium chlorate or perchlorate are washing out the colour noticeably. But like I've said a couple of times: I'm thinking of abandoning metal fuels completely in blue, green and red stars.

 

And like I've also said a couple of times: my ideal chemicals for green and red would be either barium perchlorate+hexamine for green and strontium perchlorate+hexamine for red. The most beautiful blue I have ever seen was AP+Paris Green+hexamine, 70:15:15, though Paris Green is impossible to get hold of anymore here in Europe, as far as I know.

[Potassiumchlorate]

so whats evry ones thoughts on rolling veline colour stars, i thought the parlon was a nescasary chlorine donor, can i leave it out? up the perc? it would be ideal if i could roll them without the fumes of acetone, ive just started hand rolling and i really like how hard the stars get and how quick they dry especialy c6 and tt, ive tried the rolling in prime method with rg3 does round them off nicely but i enjoy using de or other stars as cores.

 

dan.

 

No, you'll still need it as a chlorine donor, especially in potassium perchlorate stars, but you can roll with dextrin anyway. For chlorate stars I find PVC to be a better chlorine donor. You don't need any extra chlorine donors for barium chlorate stars though, and not neccessarily for red chlorate based stars either.

[dan999ification]

No, you'll still need it as a chlorine donor, especially in potassium perchlorate stars, but you can roll with dextrin anyway. For chlorate stars I find PVC to be a better chlorine donor. You don't need any extra chlorine donors for barium chlorate stars though, and not neccessarily for red chlorate based stars either.

 

 

thanks, so i just roll it using water?

 

dan.

[Potassiumchlorate]

thanks, so i just roll it using water?

 

dan.

 

Given that you don't use magnesium: yes.

 

Edit: and some alcohol to decrease the surface tension.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Potassiumchlorate

[TheArchitect23]

did a quick read over the last few posts.

 

so then for this batch i will cut them, and roll them in my roller in prime to round them out.

 

i suppose next time i will try adding dextrin.

from what i believe i understand is KEEP the parlon ( as its a chlorine donor ) and add dextrin.

roll with water and alcohol. ( i use mag/alm )

 

i assume if i left the parlon out i wouldn't get a great color out of it.

 

my exact mix:

pot perc = 0.3

mag/alm = 0.3

barium carb = 0.2

parlon = 0.15

red gum = 0.05

total = 1.0

[Mumbles]

No, leave the parlon in. It's a chlorine donor first and foremost, besides being an expensive binder. Add +5% dextrin to bind.

[dan999ification]

[quote

 

my exact mix:

pot perc = 0.3

mag/alm = 0.3

barium carb = 0.2

parlon = 0.15

red gum = 0.05

total = 1.0

 

 

thats a very similar comp to veline green i havn't tried it yet because i dont like the barium but it has 4% dextrin.

it seems a bit wierd having three binders, i know the parlon is not the primary binder and adds chlorine , the red gum and the dextrin as far as i know are fuels and binders, but acetone doesnt activate/bind dextrin making it useless as a binding agent here, could it be substituted for another fuel that wont wash out the colour maybe a spark producing large mesh metal? [for cutting only] and what about leaving out the red gum and adding some coarse metals to roll and bind with water?

 

dan.

[Mumbles]

The above is derived from some of the Indepencence Red formulas. I listed the veline formula for reference below. They may look vaguely similar, but the work very differently.

 

Potassium perchlorate.............................30

Barium nitrate....................................24

Barium carbonate..................................15

Parlon............................................15

Red gum...........................................5

Magnalium (50/50), 200 mesh.......................11

Dextrin...........................................+4

 

I think you guys would understand this stuff better if you stopped thinking parlon and red gum were actually binders, and that acetone is a normal wetting solvent. Dextrin is relatively neutral in formulas, and a binder. Too many people seem to associate the neutral property of dextrin with many other binders it seems. Parlon and red gum are primarily a chlorine donor and fuel respectively. You can remove dextrin without much change in the formula. If you did the same with parlon or red gum it would change dramatically, and possibly cease to work. To effectively be making substitutions and omissions, you really need to understand how formulas function. Making random changes without knowing why you're doing it is just like playing darts in the dark.

 

Dan, I think you're missing a very important point. When someone says to bind it with dextrin it means to add dextrin to the formula and bind it with WATER.

 

Don't leave out red gum. If you want to try to add a tail to the star, add some coarse titanium to the mixture as it is. Replacing dextrin or red gum with titanium has no logic at all. It will change the formula. To add a tail you want to add titanium to the already functioning stars as it doesn't really start burning until it is ejected from the star.

[Algenco]

I roll Independence Red just as Mumbles stated, add dextrin, I also add 60-100 mesh MgAl to some batches

[TheArchitect23]

Thank you for all the clarification, perhaps a little later today i'll go out and roll up a batch.

made some DIY star sizing "trays" i need to test out anyways

[dan999ification]

yep thanks, i wont be playing darts in the dark, just curious, i didnt know red gum also has chlorine to give, learning by the day

 

 

dan.

[helix]

yep thanks, i wont be playing darts in the dark, just curious, i didnt know red gum also has chlorine to give, learning by the day

 

 

dan.

 

 

 

Red gum is a fuel, not a chlorine donor - no chlorine to the best of my knowledge.

[Mumbles]

Parlon = chlorine donor

Red Gum = fuel. No chlorine except maybe for some incidental salt content.

[TheArchitect23]

nnk4g37b.bmp just finished my stars.

i used the acetone and took a leap for cutting them. i dont think they came out toooo bad..

i think i will try the dextrin rolling and do a side by side on video.

 

for what its worth tho, it indeed gave a ridiculous green. very nice and blinding. after i go and get my cornea cream, i'll attempt at uploading a picture.

Edited October 21, 2011 by TheArchitect23