Potassium Chlorate and Sulphur

[cogbarry]

Can anyone offer advice on how to use chlorate containing stars safely? Specifically, I would like to try some star comps that contain potassium chlorate and there will obviously be sulphur in the burst charge and possibly in the primer comp(s).

 

TIA

[50AE]

Prime the stars with meal powder. Although the meal contains sulfur, if will prevent the chlorate star from scratching in the sulfur containing bust charge.

 

Remember that it's very important to have your sulfur free from acids. Otherwise you'll be asking for trouble.

[cogbarry]

Prime the stars with meal powder. Although the meal contains sulfur, if will prevent the chlorate star from scratching in the sulfur containing bust charge.

 

Remember that it's very important to have your sulfur free from acids. Otherwise you'll be asking for trouble.

 

Ah, then the sulphur/chlorate danger is mostly friction sensitivity? I was thinking there was a chem reaction hazard between the two, must be thinking of another combo.

 

Thanks 50AE

Edited September 29, 2011 by cogbarry

[JOPETES]

Please let me give you some advice.IF YOU WANT TO LIVE MANY YEARS OF HIS LIFE, forgot chlorates!. ¡PERCHLORATE ALWAYS!

 

 

[50AE]

Please let me give you some advice.IF YOU WANT TO LIVE MANY YEARS OF HIS LIFE, forgot chlorates!. ¡PERCHLORATE ALWAYS!

 

No offence, but this is bullshit. Chlorates have been used for so many years and are still in use.

 

@cogbarry

When the sulfur is pure, the mostly feared danger is shock/friction which is not far greater than k. perchlorate with sulfur

 

Dangerous mixtures are formed when acidic compounds are present in a chlorate mixture. The more acidity, the more danger. Acids decompose chlorates, possibly leading to a self ignition.

Edited September 29, 2011 by 50AE

[cogbarry]

No offence, but this is bullshit. Chlorates have been used for so many years and are still in use.

 

@cogbarry

When the sulfur is pure, the mostly feared danger is shock/friction which is not far greater than k. perchlorate with sulfur

 

Dangerous mixtures are formed when acidic compounds are present in a chlorate mixture. The more acidity, the more danger. Acids decompose chlorates, possibly leading to a self ignition.

 

Thanks for the warning JOPETES. I've been building shells for a couple years now and I think I'm ready to look into chlorate stars, just want to get some advice as I'm aware of the danger.

 

50AE,

I'm not sure how to determine the purity of my sulphur. I have a couple tubs from skylighter but also have a pound of elemental sulphur from scienceforyou.net and it's supposed to be very pure. As I recall, it's a bit darker in color than the skylighter stuff. I definately want to avoid any self ignition scenarios.

 

So I suppose if I didn't coat the stars well with prime, didn't seal my tissue paper around the passfire tube (I don't usually) or the tissue paper ripped (very possible/likely) and packed my hemis with extra coated rice hulls so the hemis take a bit of work to close tightly making the components in shell nice and packed (I do this too), I could cause the stars to rub against the burst. Analgous to striking a match against the strip?

 

Thanks again for the advice.

[50AE]

Thanks for the warning JOPETES. I've been building shells for a couple years now and I think I'm ready to look into chlorate stars, just want to get some advice as I'm aware of the danger.

 

50AE,

I'm not sure how to determine the purity of my sulphur. I have a couple tubs from skylighter but also have a pound of elemental sulphur from scienceforyou.net and it's supposed to be very pure. As I recall, it's a bit darker in color than the skylighter stuff. I definately want to avoid any self ignition scenarios.

 

So I suppose if I didn't coat the stars well with prime, didn't seal my tissue paper around the passfire tube (I don't usually) or the tissue paper ripped (very possible/likely) and packed my hemis with extra coated rice hulls so the hemis take a bit of work to close tightly making the components in shell nice and packed (I do this too), I could cause the stars to rub against the burst. Analgous to striking a match against the strip?

 

Thanks again for the advice.

 

If it's from a pyro supplier, it should be pure. Acidic sulfur tends to come from fertilizers.

 

Chlorate and sulfur is far less sensitive than the match agains the strip. It could be compared to rubbing a match against a normal surface, because the match head contains chlorate and sulfur together.

 

I've heard heavy shells with unprotected stars chlorate stars and sulfur burst charge and vice versa exploding when hitting the ground when failing to ignite.

Personally, I don't have worries after having primed my stars with +1mm BP coating and separating tissue paper.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Sulfur and chlorates give amazing colours.

 

Try this Bengal fire:

 

Barium nitrate 57

Potassium chlorate 21.5

Sulfur 21.5

 

It is almost as green as barium chlorate+shellac.

[cogbarry]

Thanks guys!

[pyrojig]

I have to second 50AE...

Chlorates arn't the devil that everyone thinks they are.

 

As 50AE said , the big issues are purity of the chems and the absolute need for acid free sulfur. I find chlorates are a wonderful oxidizer that can do thing that chlorate wont. It is naive or ill stated to just bluntly claim that chlorates should never be used, or you will die.. (This statement would only be good to tell some irresponsible knewl who otherwise would die from not taking sound advise.).

 

 

[Arthur]

If you are a competent worker planning the compounds carefully then chlorates are no problem. Some formulae really do need perc.

[Mumbles]

Chlorate stars are fine if you want organic colors. I know 50AE will disagree with me, but while sulfur (when pure) has relatively similar friction and shock sensitivities (about 10% IIRC), metals with chlorates are significantly more sensitive than with perchlorates. There are some specialized effects where metals and chlorates are combined such as rosettes, colored beraq, and some silver streamers, and care should be taken with them and only used by very experienced individuals who have been personally taught the correct techniques. Using metals with chlorates in colored stars is absolutely stupid to me. You lose the advantage that chlorates have over perchlorates at a great cost of safety. The advantages being color purity, ignition, to some regard flame size, and questionably cost.

 

I am fine with priming chlorate stars with meal. Some are rightfully still somewhat concerned. A sulfurless BP prime is often used in these cases. Some consider a large shell with chlorate stars going off if it hits the ground a safety precaution. Primed, not primed, meal or sulfurless, a heavy enough shell containing chlorate stars will go off if it hits something hard.

 

Probably the easiest way to ensure you have good quality sulfur is to ensure it is rubbermaker's sulfur, or sulfur that has been refined out of petroleum. Both, usually from the same source, are generally considered to be the purest available, and actually quite inexpensive.

[JOPETES]

Mr. 50AE, I do not want to get into debate with usted.Veo who likes chlorates. I have also used to chlorates and I never thought of anything, but I've seen the reactions with sulfur and moisture. It is true that some pyrotechnics use it yet, I've seen here in Spain and also in China and I am sure in many countries. You know that the law prohibits the chlorates in fireworks factories?, For something will, right?. You know that most accidents are caused by factories chlorates?. I understand that for many it is easier to find pyroaficionados chlorate to perchlorate, in short, every one that does what you want. We all know that is much more stable the perchlorate and sulfur and can mix with water without problems, you can see many professionals who use formulas without problems. That's it.

[TheArchitect23]

figured id chime in here, as now im a bit confused. excusse the possibly redundant clarification.

i was assuming this was refering to only potasium chlorate, correct? Per-chlorate safer? Sulfur reaction risk eliminated?

 

i ask because i will be rolling my first colored stars soon,

however these are all carbonate components as they are much cheaper.

Strontium carbonate, Calcium carbonate, Barium carbonate, Copper carbonate, with a PER-CHLORATE base.

This would be primed with "hot prime" ( perc based ) with a BP Hulls Burst ( sulfur ) ?

now it is my current understanding that because per-chlorate is more stable it is suitable for the described contact without the

unwanted reactions.

correct?

 

 

Edited September 29, 2011 by TheArchitect23

[50AE]

Mumbles, I won't disagree about it, because I'm not much aware about the sensitivity with metals and I would feel very incomfortable with a coarse and hard metal and a chlorate. I'm using bright Al with KClO3 for my bottom shots and inserts though, the stearic acid makes the mixture so slippery and it makes the friction very low.

 

Mr. 50AE, I do not want to get into debate with usted.Veo who likes chlorates. I have also used to chlorates and I never thought of anything, but I've seen the reactions with sulfur and moisture. It is true that some pyrotechnics use it yet, I've seen here in Spain and also in China and I am sure in many countries. You know that the law prohibits the chlorates in fireworks factories?, For something will, right?. You know that most accidents are caused by factories chlorates?. I understand that for many it is easier to find pyroaficionados chlorate to perchlorate, in short, every one that does what you want. We all know that is much more stable the perchlorate and sulfur and can mix with water without problems, you can see many professionals who use formulas without problems. That's it.

 

1. Sulfur and moisture - Can you (and maybe others) debate why pure sulfur should react with chlorate under moisture? We are only talking about aacid free sulfur here. If I remember correctly, match heads are made with a water soluble binder.

2. Laws? I wouldn't mix them with this subject, because many laws are made by "inhumans". Just because something wasn't used correctly, doesn't mean it has to be forbidden.

3. One doesn't have to mix chlorate and sulfur. One can handle chlorate with safer fuels and this doesn't mean he will live less years.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Like I said in one of the old threads about Russian fires: I'd use perchlorates of barium and strontium if I had the technical skills to keep them dry while making the stars and then sealing the stars with some absolutely waterproof prime. They could be combined with sulfur, hexamine and metals if you could avoid the exposure to moist. Nothing could beat that.

 

But since I don't have those skills, I use barium chlorate for organic green and strontium nitrate+potassium chlorate for organic red.

[NightHawkInLight]

figured id chime in here, as now im a bit confused. excusse the possibly redundant clarification.

i was assuming this was refering to only potasium chlorate, correct? Per-chlorate safer? Sulfur reaction risk eliminated?

 

There is an inherent danger in building fireworks, so do not believe that you are free to go about using perchlorates without care, but yes, they are safer than chlorates. A reaction between perchlorate and sulfur that would cause spontaneous ignition is not at all likely, but it should still be treated with respect as all compositions should.

 

 

Now onto the point of this topic:

Can anyone offer advice on how to use chlorate containing stars safely? Specifically, I would like to try some star comps that contain potassium chlorate and there will obviously be sulphur in the burst charge and possibly in the primer comp(s).

 

TIA

 

If you are using chlorate stars, why use a sulfur containing burst? You're already using chlorate so you may as well use H3 on hulls and avoid any incompatibility. Priming with black powder or sulfurless BP is an unnecessary step since chlorate stars almost never need to be primed. You need to do something extra either way you think about it, whether you make H3 on hulls, or prime the stars, so why not use H3 and keep sulfur out of the shell entirely. Yeah, sulfur's not as huge a danger as it's made out to be, but it is still an added risk. If you don't need to use sulfur in the stars for a very specific effect there's no reason to have it in the shell at all. Just how I see it.

[TheArchitect23]

There is an inherent danger in building fireworks, so do not believe that you are free to go about using perchlorates without care, but yes, they are safer than chlorates. A reaction between perchlorate and sulfur that would cause spontaneous ignition is not at all likely, but it should still be treated with respect as all compositions should.

 

thank you

[Verge]

Ah, then the sulphur/chlorate danger is mostly friction sensitivity? I was thinking there was a chem reaction hazard between the two, must be thinking of another combo.

 

Thanks 50AE

 

There is a chance that the sulfur reacts with components in the air to make sulfuric acid.This I read from some safety tip site.The chance is minimal but you still wanna be careful.Use pure sulfur and no agri grade.My main question is why even use chlorate and sulfur?

Edited September 30, 2011 by Verge

[50AE]

@Nighthawk

 

1.H3 is suitable for small shells only, thus BP is cheaper

2. From experience, many chlorate formulas should be primed, like those containing resins, carbonates, PVC, heavy nitrate content, silver streamers, etc

[Mumbles]

There is a difference between sulfur and chlorate being in contact with one another such as in a star/prime scenario or star/burst scenario, and being intimately mixed in the same composition. Just being in contact really doesn't increase sensitivity too much. Unless you hit a primed star with a hammer, it's not going to go off. Heck, it might be going off even before it's primed if treated like that, especially lactose blues. Like I said before, if you're not comfortable using meal prime, it is completely understandable. Use a sulfurless prime, and all the worries are gone. It will definitely ignite, there is no sulfur in contact with the chlorate, and the stars are protected from the burst.

 

I know of no reactions where elemental sulfur will react at ambient conditions to make any sulfuric acid or precursors to it. Typically the issue arises from impure sulfur or sulfur which has been purified by sublimation. The latter introduces some level of trapped sulfur oxides, which can be turned into acids with contact with water and the atmosphere. This is the main cause of the precautions and several accidents from the past. Even using the same purity of sulfur we use now, there are still accidents happening. Just look at Malta, but you have to take the compositions into account too.

 

I agree with 50AE here. I prime everything, chlorate or not. It reduces friction in a shell even if it's not necessary for ignition. Can shells are filled around the stars with polverone with shaking and tapping, and ball shells are over filled and forced closed by tapping to settle. I wouldn't be comfortable rapping on the shell if they were not covered with a barrier to protect the stars.

[Potassiumchlorate]

@Nighthawk

 

1.H3 is suitable for small shells only, thus BP is cheaper

2. From experience, many chlorate formulas should be primed, like those containing resins, carbonates, PVC, heavy nitrate content, silver streamers, etc

 

I have actually used H3 on cotton seeds up to 8". In 8" it was too strong, so the shell was totally smashed, but it worked in 6" and gave a very hard break but most of the stars ignited and didn't smash.

[allrocketspsl]

most take fire so easily priming isnt an issue

[cogbarry]

figured id chime in here, as now im a bit confused. excusse the possibly redundant clarification.

i was assuming this was refering to only potasium chlorate, correct? Per-chlorate safer? Sulfur reaction risk eliminated?

 

i ask because i will be rolling my first colored stars soon,

however these are all carbonate components as they are much cheaper.

Strontium carbonate, Calcium carbonate, Barium carbonate, Copper carbonate, with a PER-CHLORATE base.

This would be primed with "hot prime" ( perc based ) with a BP Hulls Burst ( sulfur ) ?

now it is my current understanding that because per-chlorate is more stable it is suitable for the described contact without the

unwanted reactions.

correct?

 

 

 

Perchlorate is safer yes. I have avoided chlorates as word is, it's best to avoid them until you have some experience. However, now that I can build shells that lift,burst correctly and my stars all light, I thought I was ready to try some different effects, colors, rolled color changing, crackling, etc. Some of the interesting formulas I have been finding call for potassium chlorate. I know there are safety concerns here so I thought I'd ask for advice. Do you think I picked the right forum to ask this question?

[cogbarry]

There is a difference between sulfur and chlorate being in contact with one another such as in a star/prime scenario or star/burst scenario, and being intimately mixed in the same composition. Just being in contact really doesn't increase sensitivity too much. Unless you hit a primed star with a hammer, it's not going to go off. Heck, it might be going off even before it's primed if treated like that, especially lactose blues. Like I said before, if you're not comfortable using meal prime, it is completely understandable. Use a sulfurless prime, and all the worries are gone. It will definitely ignite, there is no sulfur in contact with the chlorate, and the stars are protected from the burst.

 

I know of no reactions where elemental sulfur will react at ambient conditions to make any sulfuric acid or precursors to it. Typically the issue arises from impure sulfur or sulfur which has been purified by sublimation. The latter introduces some level of trapped sulfur oxides, which can be turned into acids with contact with water and the atmosphere. This is the main cause of the precautions and several accidents from the past. Even using the same purity of sulfur we use now, there are still accidents happening. Just look at Malta, but you have to take the compositions into account too.

 

I agree with 50AE here. I prime everything, chlorate or not. It reduces friction in a shell even if it's not necessary for ignition. Can shells are filled around the stars with polverone with shaking and tapping, and ball shells are over filled and forced closed by tapping to settle. I wouldn't be comfortable rapping on the shell if they were not covered with a barrier to protect the stars.

 

Thanks Mums,

In my case, I wasn't sure what the actual danger was as it's been a while since I've read up on it. I thought there may be a reaction danger but apparently, that's more of a concern if there are impurities. I had also heard of stabalizing by adding something but forget the details (barium carbonate maybe?). I will prime with meal, be aware that there may be more friction sensitivity than most stars I have made and refrain from using the hammer when building the shells.