bob800 Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 Hello, I'm somewhat new to pyrotechnics, and I've always wanted to build some black powder rockets. However, I've noticed a regulation for potassium nitrate on some suppliers, but not others. For example, United Nuclear states that new government restrictions prohibit an individual from purchasing more than 1 lb. of KNO3 / year. Firefox Enterprises also has this restriction. (except with an ATF licence, of course) On the other hand, suppliers like Skylighter do not appear to have any restriction on their website. They even sell a kit which includes 8 POUNDS of KNO3, without any license required (as far as I can tell). Typing in "potassium nitrate" on eBay brings up dozens of hits for orders exceeding 1 pound. Does anyone know more about this issue? Am I going to have a BATF agent at my doorstep if I order more than 1 pound without a license? Things like stump remover are so easy to obtain, I don't know how they could ever enforce this fully. Thanks for any clarification, bob800
Mumbles Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 Places like Firefox and United Nuclear have restrictions because they've been targeted by the Consumer Product Safety Comission (CPSC), and have not been able to fight the government machine. As part of the settlement, they've had to install these restrictions to prevent the manufacture of salutes. You'll notice that the regulations particularly affect fine metal powders and a number of oxidizers. I've never heard of people who ordered potassium nitrate in amounts greater than 1lb ever coming under fire from any sort of authority.
bob800 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Posted September 27, 2011 OK, thanks. Although, I just read the post about a BP rocket exploding while being rammed, so now I'm not so sure about this hobby....
PersonGuyDude Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 As far as safety goes, you should be OK if you read the safety threads. Be wary of things like coffee grinders etc... Think of it this way, at just the PGI they have HUNDREDS of people manufacturing a massive amount of pyro, and there is almost never a problem. Some of these people are experienced, some just started out. The way I see it, be as safety conscious as possible, but don't scare yourself past an acceptable level.They hardly regulate Pot. Perch, which is an oxidizer much more prone to misuse then KNO3. I would only worry about someone knocking on your door if you buy 150+ lbs of Ammonium nitrate or something, which has no use in fireworks...As always, get legal. If you do not want to/can't afford the legalities, join a club and only manufacture there, it is really much more fun that way. This is my first year in a club and it's the best way I've ever spent my money...
californiapyro Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 agreed, being in a club really takes the pressure off! oh, and it's damned hard to get bp to ignite unless you really f*** up...
Thunderr1 Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 Some of the other benefits of being in a club is that you will learn the Safe and sometimes cheaper way of doing things. Plus you will be around people who like pyro and wont look at you funny when you talk about it.
nater Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 OK, thanks. Although, I just read the post about a BP rocket exploding while being rammed... Really? I must have missed that post. How did that happen?
allrocketspsl Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 read read read read before you do anything,driving a car is more dangerous
bob800 Posted September 27, 2011 Author Posted September 27, 2011 As always, get legal. If you do not want to/can't afford the legalities, join a club and only manufacture there, it is really much more fun that way. This is my first year in a club and it's the best way I've ever spent my money... I was under the impression that it's legal to manufacture fireworks and use them on private property (with a large space between fireworks and neighbors) as long as fireworks are legal in that state, and as long as the compositions are used the same day, and they are not transported. Is this false?
nater Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 I was under the impression that it's legal to manufacture fireworks and use them on private property (with a large space between fireworks and neighbors) as long as fireworks are legal in that state, and as long as the compositions are used the same day, and they are not transported. Is this false? This is true on a federal level here in the United States, State and Local laws vary and most likely are much more restrictive.
allrocketspsl Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 in florida nothing over 60 grams can leave the ground,all else is ok
dagabu Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) OK, thanks. Although, I just read the post about a BP rocket exploding while being rammed, so now I'm not so sure about this hobby.... Yup, if that scares you then this hobby is not for you. The point of fireworks is to use fire to create beautiful effects and that fire, if it is not shown the utmost respect, can turn on you. The chances of a BP rocket popping on you when ramming are slim but it is possible. More likely is an explosion or ignition if you tried to hammer on whistle or strobe. Of all the accidents I have seen or heard of, they happened when removing the rammer from the spindle after pressing an increment. I was under the impression that it's legal to manufacture fireworks and use them on private property (with a large space between fireworks and neighbors) as long as fireworks are legal in that state, and as long as the compositions are used the same day, and they are not transported. Is this false? As stated above, the state and even local municipalities may have restrictive laws that even make it illegal to even own visco fuse. Only those items guaranteed as an inclusion by the 2nd amendment, are covered by federal protection. That is; firearms, ammo, black powder (as long as one can provide proof that they have a legitimate use for it) and bullets.-dag Edited September 27, 2011 by dagabu
allrocketspsl Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 Yup, if that scares you then this hobby is not for you. The point of fireworks is to use fire to create beautiful effects and that fire, if it is not shown the utmost respect, can turn on you. The chances of a BP rocket popping on you when ramming are slim but it is possible. More likely is an explosion or ignition if you tried to hammer on whistle or strobe. Of all the accidents I have seen or heard of, they happened when removing the rammer from the spindle after pressing an increment. [/size][/color] As stated above, the state and even local municipalities may have restrictive laws that even make it illegal to even own visco fuse. Only those items guaranteed as an inclusion by the 2nd amendment, are covered by federal protection. That is; firearms, ammo, black powder (as long as one can provide proof that they have a legitimate use for it) and bullets.-dag the first time I got busted I told the cops comon in guys everything I do is legal,showed them my workroom chems etc,I only make what Im shooting that day anyway the young cop thought he had me when he saw a large batch of bp about ten lbs ,he told the Sargent hes coming in with us I said no Im not,sargent said hes legal in florida he can have up to 50lbs of bp even if not in a ATF grade magazine,tip,you lie to a cop if he bust you he will nail you tell the truth chances are you get a warning,I know from experience,lol
Mumbles Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 For what it's worth that 50lbs only applies toward commercially produced blackpowder, not homemade. Homemade is required to be stored in a magazine if it's self-produced. It sounds like you lucked out in that they didn't really know the law in the first place.
Arthur Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 Worldwide the first rule must be "don't annoy the neighbours"
busspuppy Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) Yep mumbles is right rocket. Homemade BP is considered 1.3g, you can't even transport it. I know for a fact. That is about storing it and such, Im not sure on 50lbs as thats a state law and I was only speaking of fedral law.Refrences:(ATF Orangebook) Edited September 27, 2011 by busspuppy
dagabu Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 (edited) ...you can't even transport it. "Keep in mind that individuals do not need a manufacturer's license if they are manufacturing black powder for their own personal, non-business use. However, all persons possessing black powder for use in fireworks must store the black powder in an explosives magazine subject to the regulations found in 27 CFR, Part 555, Subpart KStorage, and must possess a Federal explosives license or permit to transport such black powder" ATF EXPLOSIVES Industry NewsletterJune 201 Persons engaged in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a Federal explosives license. [18 U.S.C. 841©, 841(d), 845(a)(5); 27 CFR 555.11: definitions of “explosives” and “explosive materials”, 555.141(] Edited September 27, 2011 by dagabu
nater Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 "The use of black powderin any other manner or in quantities greater than50 pounds, even for sporting, recreational, orcultural purposes, is not exempt from ATF regulation. In addition, please be aware that the exemption under Federal law confers no privilege with"I find it interesting the black powder has the ability to morph its properties to where it has to be controlled depending on its intended use.
dagabu Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 In my state from the state Fire Marshal: You are correct about the State Fire Marshal regulation of black powder. In addition to the state statutes and rules that I sent you, there are also requirements in the Minnesota State Fire Code (which I did not send you). Basically the state fire code allows you to store up to 20 lbs of black powder in a single family home (but not an apartment). In addition, you can manufacture black powder for personal use but you cannot sell it (that would be wholesale or retail sales and require a license). I am only addressing the State Fire Marshal rules and codes; this does not address any BATFE requirements which would be separate from, and in addition to, any state requirements.
Peret Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 I find it interesting the black powder has the ability to morph its properties to where it has to be controlled depending on its intended use. As with many other things, black powder morphs and flows when subject to extreme pressure, such as from a frighteningly influential lobbying group. If it were not for that, it wouldn't have morphed and it would be completely illegal. Every pyro should join and support the NRA out of simple gratitude, whatever you think of their politics otherwise.
Potassiumchlorate Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 The only wrong with the NRA is that it doesn't exist outside the USA. With something like that in Europe we wouldn't have gun laws in favour of the criminals in almost every country. KNO3 isn't regulated here (yet) but you are denied to buy it as a fertilizer(=cheap), if you're not a farmer.
cogbarry Posted September 28, 2011 Posted September 28, 2011 (edited) As with many other things, black powder morphs and flows when subject to extreme pressure, such as from a frighteningly influential lobbying group. If it were not for that, it wouldn't have morphed and it would be completely illegal. Every pyro should join and support the NRA out of simple gratitude, whatever you think of their politics otherwise. I'll second that. Edited September 28, 2011 by cogbarry
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