4 oz rocket help ?

[h&k machineguns]

Don't ball mill it or you'll need a new ball mill when that one blows up.

 

And you keep talking nozzles, have you tried one without a nozzle? I've never put a nozzle on whistles before. I attached a pic of what the fuse end of a cored rocket should looks like. BTW, that's from www.passfire.com and if've you've never visited that site, it's literally porno for pyros.

 

I'm also curious to hear your results with making whistle mix without the Vaseline and Mineral Spirits. My guess is that it won't compress when pressing, and the rocket will CATO on you. If it does, don't throw the chemicals away, you might be able to use it to coat rice hulls for burst media when you start making aerial shells.

All my whislte rockets I've tried using straight whislte with no nozzle,have looked just like your pic. I however have always jammed the fuse all the way up in the hole,and usually put a little piece of straw I find on the ground to keep the fuse from falling out. I'm wondering if this has been a big issue ?

 

For the record I would rather not have a nozzle on my whislte rockets and preffer the simplicity of straight whislte mix. I was only experamenting with them,because my rockets were super super slow.

 

Thanks,guys for all your help so far. I feel a little bad for being a newbie board hog. However it doesn't seem this board is moving very fast anyway. Every night I'm googling new info and usually what I post here,I can't find elswhere.

[ewest]

I would say yes, on a whistle rocket, jamming a fuse all the way into the core is effecting the rocket. Whistles are a little different than BP rockets.

 

On my BP rockets, about 1/4" from the end of the fuse I'll cut it about half way thru and bend it over, it'll form a little hook sort of and you can jam that up into the core and it'll secure itself. But on a whistle, it needs the entire core free of obstructions for the full thrust to be effective. At least in my opinion it does, everyone does things a little different. I tape the fuse to the stick so that's it's just touching the end of the composition and they work everytime......that is when they don't CATO on me

 

And as long as you're asking for legitimate pyrotechnic or chemistry info, no problem, that's what a forum is for. Just don't come on and in your first post ask how to blow stuff up, that's when we tend to get pissed.

[delta_echo]

Just to add to the consensus, your Sodium Salicylate must be VERY finely powdered. I have tried making whistles (ground devices, not rockets) using 200-300 mesh salicylate only to discover that it won't even make a whistling sound. Since you keep having such poor results, I would throw it in your ball mill for 24 hrs or so and then give it a try. On another note, I've never had to "wet" the whistle mix nor do I granulate it. I just throw the appropriate amount of vaseline in, grab a spoon and start stirring - no screens involved. Takes about 7-10 min. but I haven't had any problems using it for end burning nozzle rockets. Thats exactly what was used in the video I posted earlier.

[h&k machineguns]

I just got back from trying a new mixture.

 

Potassium perchlorate (fine mesh).................64

Sodium S................................32

Red Iron Oxide, Fe2O3.............................1

 

I dry mixed this after having all ingridiants in the ball mill individually for 8 hour each.

 

1800 LBS in a 4 oz rocket using the fused way in the pic above.I used no nozzle,but used about a 1/2" long core by 3/16" wide

 

The results were better than before,but not much. Got a steady 50 feet for 5 seconds ,then fell down burning on the ground in one place for a second or two.

 

What's the hottest ratio I can do with whistle before going backwards ?

Is 70 PP and 30 SS the hottest ?

 

Thanks again.

[FrankRizzo]

Just to add to the consensus, your Sodium Salicylate must be VERY finely powdered. I have tried making whistles (ground devices, not rockets) using 200-300 mesh salicylate only to discover that it won't even make a whistling sound. Since you keep having such poor results, I would throw it in your ball mill for 24 hrs or so and then give it a try. On another note, I've never had to "wet" the whistle mix nor do I granulate it. I just throw the appropriate amount of vaseline in, grab a spoon and start stirring - no screens involved. Takes about 7-10 min. but I haven't had any problems using it for end burning nozzle rockets. Thats exactly what was used in the video I posted earlier.

 

So, you don't add any solvent to the vaseline?

[ewest]

Maybe your chem's are just crap. Did you get them from a reputable pyro supplier or somewhere else?

[h&k machineguns]

Maybe your chem's are just crap. Did you get them from a reputable pyro supplier or somewhere else?

Firefox and skylighter .

[ewest]

It should be good stuff then; I think we've narrowed it down to how you're actually making the whistle mix then. Try to make it a different way than you have been doing. No two people make it the same even if they follow the same directions.

 

The directions you found from Skylighter is how I make mine except I don't let it get to powder when it's drying, I granulate it.

 

I always use Vaseline and VM&P Naphtha for the solvent. One thing I noticed is that you don't actually need to heat Vaseline to melt it, just pour your Naphtha in a Pyrex mixing cup and add the Vaseline, it'll melt on it's own but make sure you don't add it until it is all melted. Stirring it with a popsicle stick helps speed the process.

 

Also, when you're to the point where you have everything all mixed together it'll be really runny like the consistency of tomato soup, and I keep squishing it in my gloved hand for 5-10 minutes.

 

After this I let it dry in a big stainless steel bowl and smear it up the sides every now and then to dry faster, within a couple hours you can roll it into a ball the consistency of play-dough and that's when I run it over a screen and granulate it. Let that dry for a few more hours and you're ready to go.

[h&k machineguns]

Yaaaah,I did it. I finally built a working 4 0z whistle rocket. It helped to use a dedicated 4 oz whistle tooling(Wolter). It came I signed for it and within 20 minutes I had already successfuly launched my rocket.

 

I used 4.5" length 1/2 ID AND 3/4 OD tubing. My whistle mix was

Sodium S (30%)

Potasium P (70%)

Red Iron Oxide(1% of the total of above)

 

I ball milled the Potasium P with the Red Iron Oxide for 20 hours.

Then I removed the stuff and cleaned the ball mill out real good.

 

I then ball milled the Sodium S for 7 hours by itself(Went from white to light gray).Must have had a little led in it from the lead ball mill balls. Not sure if this affects anything. I may pic up some stainless balls or ceramic,since I'm not going to be ball milling Black powder anymore(once you go whistle you never go back...LOL)

 

I then put every ball milled ingridient into a plastic container and just shook it for 2 straight minutes. The overall propellant was very very fine(Probably airfloat fine).

 

I pressed about 6 incraments at 2K pounds. I added about 1/2" of kitty litter on top about 1" from top of the tube.

 

Used a 3/8" oak dowl 3 feet long.

 

The thing took off so fast I couldn't even see it until it was well over 200' into the air. Not real sure how high it went,but seem to get there twice as fast as the BP rockets did in the same size. It cork screwed a little towards the last 25% of the lift(Not sure why) wasn't windy either.

 

Thanks all for the help. I look forward to more in the future.

 

P.S.... What does the vasoline do in the mix anyway ?

[delta_echo]

P.S.... What does the vasoline do in the mix anyway ?

It helps consolidate the mixture during pressing. More importantly, it supposedly reduces the chance of an accidental ignition when in the pressing phase.

[h&k machineguns]

P.S.... What does the vasoline do in the mix anyway ?

It helps consolidate the mixture during pressing. More importantly, it supposedly reduces the chance of an accidental ignition when in the pressing phase.

Thanks. I was hoping me shaking the crap out of the dry mix in a closed plastic container wasn't dangerous!

 

If the vasoline is only used for that,it seems like it's a lot of work to get it to that phase,just to make it easier to load in the tube during pressing.I would think that the extra ingridiant of 3% vasoline could slow down the motor a little,but that's just assuming.

Thanks

[h&k machineguns]

Wow,I just got back from doing a whistle rocket that I thought would never stop climbing and never stock screaming. I only wish I knew how high it went. Seems it flew for 12 seconds or more.I was actually getting a litte parinoid on when It was going to finally stop. The differance from the first to the last rocket that I had reported about earlier was about 1" more of propellant. I honestly feel I could do this all day long(Launch that is not make) My hand gets very tired of withdrawing the ram rods over and over,and that just on a single motor. All this trial and error that I was frustrated with earlier finally feels now it was all worth it.

[Mumbles]

Usually a small salute is placed on top of the rocket. When it goes off you can count the seconds between light and sound. Every second is around 1000 feet up. There is some error due to the rocket not being completely overhead, but it is negligible, and is just an estimate in the first place. For instance, say it took 3.5 seconds from light to sound, so about 3500 ft. If you were 100 feet away from the launch site, that is a difference of 1.5 feet assuming it's straight over the launch area. If you're 1000 feet away, it's 150 feet. Obviously the sound thing is relatively accurate.

[h&k machineguns]

Usually a small salute is placed on top of the rocket. When it goes off you can count the seconds between light and sound. Every second is around 1000 feet up. There is some error due to the rocket not being completely overhead, but it is negligible, and is just an estimate in the first place. For instance, say it took 3.5 seconds from light to sound, so about 3500 ft. If you were 100 feet away from the launch site, that is a difference of 1.5 feet assuming it's straight over the launch area. If you're 1000 feet away, it's 150 feet. Obviously the sound thing is relatively accurate.

The 4oz whistle I did yesterday was in the air a very long time. If I counted next time and it was 8 seconds than would this mean it's around 8 thousand feet ? I'm betting I have something a little backwards,since 8K feet is much higher than I would ever expect a rocket of it's size to go,even it being 1/2 ID X 4.25" of propellant high.

[Mumbles]

3000 feet is up around the highest possible by 6lb rockets, which are 1 1/2" in diameter and 16" long. Time on the way up doesn't work the same way as a salute. I'd suspect a 4oz rocket may get maybe 700/800 feet.

[ewest]

All this trial and error that I was frustrated with earlier finally feels now it was all worth it.

Yep, you're bit, life will never be the same again

 

It really is frustrating sometimes to get something to work, but once it does.....it's just plain fun ain't it?

 

I'm glad to hear you finally got them working, way to go! Now it's time to start putting a report for a header.

[h&k machineguns]

All this trial and error that I was frustrated with earlier finally feels now it was all worth it.

Yep, you're bit, life will never be the same again

 

It really is frustrating sometimes to get something to work, but once it does.....it's just plain fun ain't it?

 

I'm glad to hear you finally got them working, way to go! Now it's time to start putting a report for a header.

I would be worried of getting in trouble with the law if I put a header on the motor. I feel good with just plain motors,because anyone of the age of 18 or over can go buy D motors or even F composite motors off the shelf.

I'm not real sure were rocket motors stand as far as legalities go in Arizona,but I figure since I'm not making things go bang in the air or on the ground I'd be safe from getting a criminal record.

[h&k machineguns]

Well I had all 3 whistle rocks fail today. This was done with the same (Batch) as before,I was just using the rest up. The first one exploded on the ground. The other took off in 3 sections ,and maybe went 20 feet high,and the 3rd branched off strange right off the launch,but the bigger piece went up maybe a 100 foot and blew up(I put a little loose powder at the top,to try a little salute).

I'm wondering if my dry mix with no vasoline had something to do with it. Maybe the vasoline helps with storage,since this was the same batch as before and all 3 of those were very high,fast and loud.

I'm doing another batch of whistle,but trying the vasoline this time. Looks like I wont be able to try it though,since I just mixed it all together in a dough type and it's sitting out drying.

What incriments do you all do your 4 oncers with ?

I am doing 1 Teaspoon at a time. Is this maybe to much ? Thanks

[ewest]

When my whistles CATO on me, it's always been because the composition wasn't consolidated correctly after pressing. Either it cracks on me or I used too big of an increment. At least so far that's been my experience.

 

I believe Delta Echo mentioned a few posts back that vaseline helped the mix to consolidate, and I have a good feeling that's true. However, I always use it so I can't speak for how they react without it.

 

The longest I've ever stored a pressed rocket or raw mix was about 6 months and I was able to launch those rockets plus press new ones from the old mix and they flew just fine too. So I'd suggest making your next batch with the Vaseline and some VM&P Naphtha.

 

And for a 4oz rocket I use 1/2 teaspoon increments and I press them per Wolter's chart.

 

P.S. Rockets CATOing like that is a good reminder to light stuff and get the hell away.

[h&k machineguns]

When my whistles CATO on me, it's always been because the composition wasn't consolidated correctly after pressing. Either it cracks on me or I used too big of an increment. At least so far that's been my experience.

 

I believe Delta Echo mentioned a few posts back that vaseline helped the mix to consolidate, and I have a good feeling that's true. However, I always use it so I can't speak for how they react without it.

 

The longest I've ever stored a pressed rocket or raw mix was about 6 months and I was able to launch those rockets plus press new ones from the old mix and they flew just fine too. So I'd suggest making your next batch with the Vaseline and some VM&P Naphtha.

 

And for a 4oz rocket I use 1/2 teaspoon increments and I press them per Wolter's chart.

 

P.S. Rockets CATOing like that is a good reminder to light stuff and get the hell away.

Dang I was hoping I wasn't going to have to go down to 1/2 Teaspoon incriments. Seems it took a very long time to do a singel rocket with 1 Teaspoon incriments,but now with 1/2 teasponn incriments it will take twice as long as that.

The Cato's didn't seem as bad as I was expecting. I was always picturing them like flash going off.Still though I like to be a good 50' away anyway,cause the rockets move way to fast,and if your below them seems you miss the first 1/2 the flight.

 

I'll report back in another 24 hours when the new batch has dried up long enough to load and launch.

 

What do you store your mix whistle in and do you avoid certain outside temps with it while stored? I ask because AZ can get up to 115 down to 15 degree's through out the year. Thanks

[ewest]

You may not have to go down to 1/2 teaspoon increments, that's just what I do. But if they continue to CATO, use smaller increments and see if that clears it up. And when mine do go off, they're just about as loud as flash, that last one on July 4th that CATO'd set off car alarms about 4 houses down.....oops.

 

As far as storage of whistle mix. Mine is in a ziploc bag inside a tupperware container on a shelf next to my BP and burst mix and a few other comps. I'm real careful to wipe everything off before I put stuff away. All of it is in my shed in the backyard which is a heavy duty plastic shed with wooden flooring. I live in Houston and although we don't get up to 115 outside like AZ, we do get to 105.

[h&k machineguns]

You may not have to go down to 1/2 teaspoon increments, that's just what I do. But if they continue to CATO, use smaller increments and see if that clears it up. And when mine do go off, they're just about as loud as flash, that last one on July 4th that CATO'd set off car alarms about 4 houses down.....oops.

 

As far as storage of whistle mix. Mine is in a ziploc bag inside a tupperware container on a shelf next to my BP and burst mix and a few other comps. I'm real careful to wipe everything off before I put stuff away. All of it is in my shed in the backyard which is a heavy duty plastic shed with wooden flooring. I live in Houston and although we don't get up to 115 outside like AZ, we do get to 105.

I had been talking to Rich Wolter over the phone and had mentioned to him that I had been pressing my rockets a little harder than what's recommended by his gage chart. I mentioned I had pressed a Whistle 4oz once with good results at 2500 pounds,when he recommends 1725 pounds. He told me a that he thought you couldn't over press whistle.All this was making me think, that if you could go bigger incriments if you just pressed it harder,assuming he's right about over pressing doesn't hurt anything ?

I notice also that if I don't have hose clamps right up against each other sold all the way down the reinforcment sleave,that I get little ridges down my finished tube. I just finished a new support sleave that has them all the way down with no gaps,hope that helps.

After experamenting a little on trying to speed up the process, I figured out you can epoxy(Plastic fusion at Walmart) the hose clamps to the sleave permanently as long as it's a 1/2 inch away from the screw joint area and it makes this whole process a little faster.The clamps stay put keeping them put inline and straight.When you epoxy the clamps in plase,I put a motor tube in the sleave with it tightned like I was getting ready to press it.

Any other pointers to make the loading easier,and possibly faster ?

 

Do you guys spray any lube inside the tube,rams or spindle ? Pulling the first few rams out ,is the part I hate the most. After the 3rd time it's not so bad with a rag in one hand grasping the support sleave and the other hand, unscrewing the ram rod(My tooling has little bar going through the rod for gription).