4 oz rocket help ?

[h&k machineguns]

I just got my Pressure gage from Wolter and I'm not 100% sure how much I'm suppose to press my Black powder 75/15/10 end burner rockets. I have been trying it at 1275 PSI,but get the last solid ram tweeking (Crooked) inside the cardboard tube I bought from Firefox. I'm wondering if my tubes aren't long enough to support the last ram. I have been cutting the tubes to 3 and 1/4 ". I was thinking maybe I should make them longer to support the ram,but don't really want the extra weight. Maybe I shouldn't load the black powder past 70%.

Also on the Wolter gage there's KPA measurments. What's this ?

 

I am going to start doing 4 oz wistle rockets in a few days. I will be using the 4oz end burner rocket tooling I bought from Wolter(Same as above). I was going to just leave out the cat litter nozzle and load the whistle 100%. Any pointers here ?

Rich Wolter has told me some guys are actually using nozzles on their whistle rockets and they work very well. Your opinion ?

Also he was saying that some of the big pros are using end burner with 100% whistle mix with 100%black powder 50/50 and using the same nozzles as what comes with his end burner tooling. He claims they don't make whistle sound,but are extreemly fast.Your opinion ?

 

I suppose I want the fastest end burner 4oz rocket I can make without CATO's. ANY HELP HERE ?

I'm saying End burner for my goals,because of the application I have for them. Core burners just won't work for what I need them to do.

 

Okay I think I'm done. Sorry for all the questions. I visit the old boards to try and get answers,but haven't had any luck.

 

Thanks for the help and sorry for being such a board hog.

[FrankRizzo]

First, make sure your press is square and that your tooling is centered while pressing. Second, after dumping each increment of fuel into the tube, and before pressing, stick the appropriate rammer inside the tube, push down and rotate a few times to get a nice even pressing density. When I had problems like you're describing, it was from the powder being loaded more densely on one side of the tube forming a very shallow ramp...it doesn't always flow evenly around if you just dump the powder in and press right away.

 

Another way to support your rammers for that last increment of fuel or clay is to use a support sleeve that's a bit longer than necessary, and put a small length of the same type of tube in that extra space to use as a support bushing. You can simply just re-use that little piece every time you press up a motor.

[delta_echo]

As for adding nozzles to whistle rockets, this tends to boost performance while very much reducing the audible whistle. My little 4 oz. whistles w/ nozzle when fully loaded go WAY up. Here's a quick vid (sorry for the long wait in the beginning): http://media.putfile.com/Whistle-Rockets

 

The first rocket was only filled to half capacity with fuel, while the susequent rockets are filled to capacity. On the second rocket, I believe the clay nozzle was pushed out causing th rocket to bank to the right and start whistling. Hope that gives you an idea.

[h&k machineguns]

As for adding nozzles to whistle rockets, this tends to boost performance while very much reducing the audible whistle. My little 4 oz. whistles w/ nozzle when fully loaded go WAY up. Here's a quick vid (sorry for the long wait in the beginning): http://media.putfile.com/Whistle-Rockets

 

The first rocket was only filled to half capacity with fuel, while the susequent rockets are filled to capacity. On the second rocket, I believe the clay nozzle was pushed out causing th rocket to bank to the right and start whistling. Hope that gives you an idea.

Great video's thanks for sharing. I am always searching for video's on the net of whistle rockets and BP rockets. I have a bunch saved on my computer.

It looked like that 2nd video's,that the rocket started flying sideways after it reached a certain hieght. Maybe it's just the way the video looked.

What size dowl did you use ?It looked very big,like 1/2 ". Have you tried thinner dowls,maybe to get more height and higher speeds ?

 

How far up that 5" length did you go with the whislte mix,and how far up did you drill that 5/32 nozzle? thanks

[delta_echo]

As for adding nozzles to whistle rockets, this tends to boost performance while very much reducing the audible whistle. My little 4 oz. whistles w/ nozzle when fully loaded go WAY up. Here's a quick vid (sorry for the long wait in the beginning): http://media.putfile.com/Whistle-Rockets

 

The first rocket was only filled to half capacity with fuel, while the susequent rockets are filled to capacity. On the second rocket, I believe the clay nozzle was pushed out causing th rocket to bank to the right and start whistling. Hope that gives you an idea.

Great video's thanks for sharing. I am always searching for video's on the net of whistle rockets and BP rockets. I have a bunch saved on my computer.

It looked like that 2nd video's,that the rocket started flying sideways after it reached a certain hieght. Maybe it's just the way the video looked.

What size dowl did you use ?It looked very big,like 1/2 ". Have you tried thinner dowls,maybe to get more height and higher speeds ?

 

How far up that 5" length did you go with the whislte mix,and how far up did you drill that 5/32 nozzle? thanks

I believe the second rocket managed to eject its plug, causing it to fly sideways and produce a whistling effect.

 

As for dowel, I honestly can't remember. I've long stopped the use of dowels for rocket sticks as they are rather expensive. I've actually gone to using garden bamboo stakes for sticks. While they are far from smooth and tend to have a small bit of curvature to them, my goal for rockets is to carry a payload rather than optimize performance.

 

For the total charge, in a full rocket I'd estimate 2.5"-3" worth of the length of the tube. About 1" was used for the clay nozzle and top plug, with the remainder being filled with a slow burning smoke mix to help me locate the rocket for examination after firing it (I was interested if my nozzles survived as well as reusing the dowels - like I said before, they're expensive). I don't have access to my notes right now, unfortunately, so I can't even tell you the total weight.

 

As for drilling the nozzle, I typically would drill (on a VERY slow setting) about 1/4" in the whistle mix. Ideally, I would like to just use tooling and skip the drilling part altogether but I only have tooling for 3/4" whistles, not 1/2".

[h&k machineguns]

As for adding nozzles to whistle rockets, this tends to boost performance while very much reducing the audible whistle. My little 4 oz. whistles w/ nozzle when fully loaded go WAY up. Here's a quick vid (sorry for the long wait in the beginning): http://media.putfile.com/Whistle-Rockets

 

The first rocket was only filled to half capacity with fuel, while the susequent rockets are filled to capacity. On the second rocket, I believe the clay nozzle was pushed out causing th rocket to bank to the right and start whistling. Hope that gives you an idea.

Great video's thanks for sharing. I am always searching for video's on the net of whistle rockets and BP rockets. I have a bunch saved on my computer.

It looked like that 2nd video's,that the rocket started flying sideways after it reached a certain hieght. Maybe it's just the way the video looked.

What size dowl did you use ?It looked very big,like 1/2 ". Have you tried thinner dowls,maybe to get more height and higher speeds ?

 

How far up that 5" length did you go with the whislte mix,and how far up did you drill that 5/32 nozzle? thanks

I believe the second rocket managed to eject its plug, causing it to fly sideways and produce a whistling effect.

 

As for dowel, I honestly can't remember. I've long stopped the use of dowels for rocket sticks as they are rather expensive. I've actually gone to using garden bamboo stakes for sticks. While they are far from smooth and tend to have a small bit of curvature to them, my goal for rockets is to carry a payload rather than optimize performance.

 

For the total charge, in a full rocket I'd estimate 2.5"-3" worth of the length of the tube. About 1" was used for the clay nozzle and top plug, with the remainder being filled with a slow burning smoke mix to help me locate the rocket for examination after firing it (I was interested if my nozzles survived as well as reusing the dowels - like I said before, they're expensive). I don't have access to my notes right now, unfortunately, so I can't even tell you the total weight.

 

As for drilling the nozzle, I typically would drill (on a VERY slow setting) about 1/4" in the whistle mix. Ideally, I would like to just use tooling and skip the drilling part altogether but I only have tooling for 3/4" whistles, not 1/2".

I just made my first whistle rocket....Yaaaa .

 

I did the same as what you had on your video,except I only had 3" length 1/2 ID cardboard tubing.I also don't think I let it dry long enough after the mixing process,probably only 2 hours outside oin the AZ heat (95 degree's).

 

It took off real fast(Fastest I've ever done) and probably went around 250' and fell apart(Maybe blew up can't tell). The stick went one way the cardboard floated down and there was a flame t hat went straight up a few additional feet.

I made 1000 grains(I don't have a gram scale) of the mix,and still have some left. I may let the rest of the mix dry longer and try it again.

Thanks for the input.

[ewest]

I just got my Pressure gage from Wolter and I'm not 100% sure how much I'm suppose to press my Black powder 75/15/10 end burner rockets. I have been trying it at 1275 PSI,but get the last solid ram tweeking (Crooked)  inside the cardboard tube I bought from Firefox. I'm wondering if my tubes aren't long enough to support the last ram. I have been cutting the tubes to 3 and 1/4 ". I was thinking maybe I should make them longer to support the ram,but don't really want the extra weight. Maybe I shouldn't load the black powder past 70%.

Also on the Wolter gage there's KPA measurments. What's this ?

KPA is Kilopascals, PSI is Pounds per square inch. It's just the metric equivalent to PSI, just like KM/H is to MPH, you can just ignore that and read the PSI on the gauge.

 

As for figuring out how much pressure to use for each type, use the chart that came with Wolter's gauge. He sends you a few charts which basically explain how to derive the force you're using from PSI, but the simple way is just use his chart that's titled "A" 6500 PSI Black Powder Rockets and "B" 8800 PSI Whistle Rockets. So for a 4oz rocket (1/2"ID) pump the jack until the Wolter P2F gauge reads 1275lbs for a Black Powder rocket and 1724lbs for a Whistle Rocket.

 

As far as the rammers getting crooked, I have the same problem and the tip Frank gave you works pretty well for me. I have a sleeve that's longer than my rocket motor and cut a smaller piece of a second rocket motor and stick it in the top to use as a shim. If you notice, the press will actually cock out of square under pressure. (IIRC you've got a 12 ton harbor freight one, so do I.)

 

I also got Rich to custom make me some rammer/press adapter rings to hold the rammers into place better on the solid bar that comes down vertically from the press. If you look at the picture, the larger hole slides onto the press and has a set screw to hold it into place. On the bottom of that is a hole drilled for a 1/2" rammer.

[h&k machineguns]

I just got my Pressure gage from Wolter and I'm not 100% sure how much I'm suppose to press my Black powder 75/15/10 end burner rockets. I have been trying it at 1275 PSI,but get the last solid ram tweeking (Crooked)  inside the cardboard tube I bought from Firefox. I'm wondering if my tubes aren't long enough to support the last ram. I have been cutting the tubes to 3 and 1/4 ". I was thinking maybe I should make them longer to support the ram,but don't really want the extra weight. Maybe I shouldn't load the black powder past 70%.

Also on the Wolter gage there's KPA measurments. What's this ?

KPA is Kilopascals, PSI is Pounds per square inch. It's just the metric equivalent to PSI, just like KM/H is to MPH, you can just ignore that and read the PSI on the gauge.

 

As for figuring out how much pressure to use for each type, use the chart that came with Wolter's gauge. He sends you a few charts which basically explain how to derive the force you're using from PSI, but the simple way is just use his chart that's titled "A" 6500 PSI Black Powder Rockets and "B" 8800 PSI Whistle Rockets. So for a 4oz rocket (1/2"ID) pump the jack until the Wolter P2F gauge reads 1275lbs for a Black Powder rocket and 1724lbs for a Whistle Rocket.

 

As far as the rammers getting crooked, I have the same problem and the tip Frank gave you works pretty well for me. I have a sleeve that's longer than my rocket motor and cut a smaller piece of a second rocket motor and stick it in the top to use as a shim. If you notice, the press will actually cock out of square under pressure. (IIRC you've got a 12 ton harbor freight one, so do I.)

 

I also got Rich to custom make me some rammer/press adapter rings to hold the rammers into place better on the solid bar that comes down vertically from the press. If you look at the picture, the larger hole slides onto the press and has a set screw to hold it into place. On the bottom of that is a hole drilled for a 1/2" rammer.

Funny you should mention the adaptors Rich made you today,when just last night I was talking to him and he was telling me he had made those for a customer,Small world.

 

My sleave that I had been using was actually about 1/2" short.I hadn't thought I needed it to go all the way up since the powder usually stops 1" from the top. I'll cut a new sleave making it 1" longer than the motor and do the little extra motor on the top,like you said and see if that helps.

My Harbor Frieght 12 ton press is also no level. The bar that comes down is not level verticly.If I push the slack out of the left side hard,I can almost get it level. I was thinking of having someone weld a pipe around that stud and having the welder make it level.

Thanks

[ewest]

Yep, I guess that's me. They do help a little and they weren't all that expensive so I am glad I got them made.

 

But my biggest problem is the press not being square. I have the exact problem you do, so if welding a spacer down one side helps please post the results. Several of us have the same press.

 

My idea was cutting strips of polyethylene from a plastic cutting board and attaching them to the leg of the press somehow so there's not so much slack. But I haven't done it yet so I'm not sure if it'll work.

[h&k machineguns]

Okay guys I just made my first full 70/30/1 whislte rockets and got back from trying them out. The first one I did blew up right on the end of the launch tube. The second one I actually used a nozzle with. I did this only because I was so used to making BP rockets that I just forgot. I went ahead and used it with the whistle anyway and expected it to blow up,even though I drilled a 1/4" wide hole into the nozzle.Strange thing is, it actually took off and worked.It only went up maybe 200 feet and blew up then,but still better than the 1st.

 

3rd rocket was only filled about 1" up the 4.25" tube and used straight wistle(I had ran out of mix at this point).This rocket launched very slow out of the launch tube and went up about 5 foot slowly and came down.

 

4th rocket was filled about 3.5" of the 4.5" tube straight with whistle. This thing hezzetated to get out of the launch tube,but when it finally did it went up in the air maybe 10' then came down flying all over the ground going 20' here and 20' there. It lasted a very long time.Seemed maybe 6+ seconds,and whislted loud the entire time.

 

I pressed each rocket with around 1750 lbs (Wolter gage and harbor frieght 12 ton press)).The tubes I have been using are from Firefox and measure 1/2" ID and 3/4 OD and were all 4.5" long.The whistle mix I mixed up,I did from listning to Rich Wolter. He had told me to use straight D Alcohol instead of waisting my time with the 3% Vasonline and Mineral spirit thing. He told me this Alcohol desolves the Sodium S very good and has always worked good for him. I tossed the PP and Red iron oxide in the ball mill for 2 hours.Pulled it out and tossed the Sodium S in there for an hour. I mixed the goodies together last night around 8PM and let everything set out on a piece of news paper thin to dry over night .

I used a strainer that I had for cooking(metal mesh,not sure the mesh pattern though).

I bought a cooking scale that I didn't know how to read properly,but I figured as long as I was consistant that's all that mattered.

280 PP 120 Sodium S and 4 red iron oxide.

The tooling I used is for 4 oz black powder end burners.

 

Anyone see any problems here,besides of course my awful Spellin ?

[Mumbles]

Yes, the problem is you're usint tooling for BP end burners, and not whistle tooling.

[blasterman]

My little 4 oz. whistles w/ nozzle when fully loaded go WAY up

 

That second shot really got some serious air. If I mounted that same engine in one of my low profile model rockets vs a stick you'd be looking at some serious altitude. I've put Estes E9 class engines up over half a mile with 18" long / 1" wide low drag rockets this way, and the perc/ss based comps in your video look like they are kicking a lot harder and longer.

 

I gotta play with this mix.

[h&k machineguns]

Yes, the problem is you're usint tooling for BP end burners, and not whistle tooling.

I used the tooling,because Richard Wolter told me it would work,since I'm filling the nozzle area with 100% Whislte mix. I figured it made since.

Is there anyway of making the whistle rockets work with my40z end burner tooling ? Maybe drilling the finish product fresh from the reinforcement sleave an extra XXXX of an inch or something ? Just frustrated of spending money on special gages,presses,chemicles scales and of course tooling,just to see no positive results .

Thanks

[ewest]

It could be in the way you're making the whistle mix, try a different method. If you have a passfire.com account or know someone who does, they have a really good How-To on making whistle mix.

 

I like Sodium Benzoate better than Salicylate, the whistle just sounds much better to me especially in 4oz and 1lb rockets. And I use VM&P Naphtha and Vaseline all the time and granulate it; I've never left it out or not granulated it.

 

Also you mentioned one blew up, I have that happen if I use increments that are too big when pressing. Say for example you put a 1 Tablespoon increment in a 1/2"ID tube, it won't fully compress into a single granule and when the fire reaches this air pocket, it'll just CATO on you.

 

So, try a different whistle mix formula, try smaller increments, and if you continue with pyro you'll need a proper scale. Don't let failures discourage you. One of the great things about Pyro is all the trials and errors; they make the rockets that do fly oh so much sweeter

[ewest]

BTW, to give you an example of the difference in Sodium Salicylate and Benzoate, here's a couple videos of some 4oz whistle rockets using each type. (I hope this works, it's the first time I've posted files)

 

4oz Sodium Salicylate Whistle Rocket

 

4oz Sodium Benzoate Whistle Rocket

 

And here's how I made them, I usually leave the delay part out now, I just like a whistle rocket with a report.

4OZ_MINI_WHISTLE_ROCKET_DIMENSIONS.pdf

[h&k machineguns]

It could be in the way you're making the whistle mix, try a different method. If you have a passfire.com account or know someone who does, they have a really good How-To on making whistle mix.

 

I like Sodium Benzoate better than Salicylate, the whistle just sounds much better to me especially in 4oz and 1lb rockets. And I use VM&P Naphtha and Vaseline all the time and granulate it; I've never left it out or not granulated it.

 

Also you mentioned one blew up, I have that happen if I use increments that are too big when pressing. Say for example you put a 1 Tablespoon increment in a 1/2"ID tube, it won't fully compress into a single granule and when the fire reaches this air pocket, it'll just CATO on you.

 

So, try a different whistle mix formula, try smaller increments, and if you continue with pyro you'll need a proper scale. Don't let failures discourage you. One of the great things about Pyro is all the trials and errors; they make the rockets that do fly oh so much sweeter

Maybe I'm doing to much on incriments. I'll try to use less on each press. I'm wondering if my overall mix is to thick in granuals also ?

[h&k machineguns]

Okay I just got back from doing 3 whistle rockets. This is now my second attempt.

This time i did what the directions of skylighter told me to do.

 

http://www.skylighter.com/skylighter_info_...cle.asp?Item=48

 

Howver instead of my rockets blowing up,they are now just extreamy slow. All 3 of the rockets I just got through doing took probably 3-4 seconds just to leave the launch tube,then only went a few feet in the air,huvering,then falling skipping around the ground. All 3 of these rockets were very loud at all times,but failed to fly high.It was almost like I had a 2 pound stick on them or something.

 

I did these again in the 4oz rockets using the 4 oz end burner tooling. I even drilled out the whole 1/4" in width also.

 

What's going on,I followed these directions and even let the mix set up for 23 hours to dry. My increments on pressing were very small,and my 4" tubes were only filled 70 percent. Just under 1800 lbs is were they were pressed to. My rods are 18" long and 1/4" square MDF wood cut on a table saw. I still have enough of the mix to try something new or I'll just make up another batch of something else. What do you guys think ?

[Mumbles]

Ok, this is what a whistle spindle looks like.

 

http://www.pyrotooling.com/images/whistle/...tle_spindle.jpg

 

Try drilling it like that. Also make sure your perc and benzoate/salicyliate are dry and very finely powdered.

[FrankRizzo]

I think Mumbles nailed your problem. Make sure that your ingredients (especially the salicylate) are dry before mixing. The last couple pounds of salicylate that I've received from Skylighter made very poor whistle mix until I baked it in the oven @ 250F for an hr.

 

If you've got a lot of crappy whistle mix, try making a few more rockets using the same increment size, but with less loading pressure. For starters, try 1275-1300 on your Wolter gauge (~6500psi). Press up a few more at 900 and 500 and see what your results are. Less consolidation will mean a faster burn rate, so might be able to use up your crappy mix and have a few acceptable rockets.

[h&k machineguns]

Thanks guys,I knew I could get some fast help. Before cheing these posts,I decided to do the same whislte mix with the same pressure(Around 1800 lbs),but put my kitty litter(1200 lbs PRESSED) in first from my black powder end burning tooling.then I drilled it out to 1/4" hole.I even drilled into the whislte mix a 1/16" or so. I'm going out now to try it.

 

Great advice on not pressing it as hard.I'll try that next. I'm also going to go a head and buy the dedicated Wolter tooling for the whilstle rockets 4OZ.I want to do this right ,so they work 100% of the time.

[ewest]

What did you use for the whistle mix? Sodium Salicylate, Benzoate, or Potassium Benzoate? I've only used the S.S. and S.B. but I heard Steve LaDuke say on one of his videos that he never could get Potassium Benzoate to work for whistle mix.

 

And can you post a video of what the rocket does when you light it? That might shed some light on the situation.

[Mumbles]

I think another problem is you're not using a core at all. It's not getting the initial thrust impulse the core gives. Look at the whistle tooling picture I gave you. THere is no nozzle at all so there is indeed a core, probably 2 ID's or so.

[h&k machineguns]

I just got back from doing the kitty litter nozzle drilled out 11/64" with 100% whistle. This one actually went up in the air,about 50' or so then what looked like branched off into 2,and had kind of a firework effect(Not real impressive ).It whislted though.

 

I also tried a straight whistle rocket that was only pressed to 1000 lbs.

It did the same thing,basicaly took a long time to leave the launcher sleave,then went up very slowly about 5 feet then skimmed the ground for 60' or so,all while whisltling really loud.

 

I have only used Sodium S with my mix to answer that question.

 

I don't have anymore of the whistle that I was using left,so I'm going to experament with just mixing dry components together with no vasoline or Meneral spirits.

I will however ball mill the Sodium and oxide together for 8 hours,then the PP by itself for 8 hour. Monday afternoon I will dry mix these ball milled components and try that out.

 

P.S anyone out in the country,ever use a super long extention cord and try ball milling all these components together. Assuming your plug in would be around the corner were you would be safe of the milling just in case. Just a thought.

[cplmac]

Don't ball mill whistle comp. Especially Salycilate. If you have ever lit a small pile of Salycilate grains you will understand. The stuff is very fast and very hard burning. Plenty strong enough to turn your ball mill into a gallon sized hand grenade. I filled one of my salute tubes with whistle mix just to test it out, and even granulated to 20 mesh it was still an impressive report. If the comp was in powder form it would have been even stronger.

[ewest]

Don't ball mill it or you'll need a new ball mill when that one blows up.

 

And you keep talking nozzles, have you tried one without a nozzle? I've never put a nozzle on whistles before. I attached a pic of what the fuse end of a cored rocket should looks like. BTW, that's from www.passfire.com and if've you've never visited that site, it's literally porno for pyros.

 

I'm also curious to hear your results with making whistle mix without the Vaseline and Mineral Spirits. My guess is that it won't compress when pressing, and the rocket will CATO on you. If it does, don't throw the chemicals away, you might be able to use it to coat rice hulls for burst media when you start making aerial shells.