be careful with nitrocellulose

[taiwanluthiers]

I've read homemade NC contains acid that can cause it to spontaneously ignite after a while...

[Potassiumchlorate]

Nah, boil it in a 5% bicarbonate solution for one hour and it's perfectly alright.

[Mumbles]

I wont get into the details here, but to properly neutralize nitrocellulose fibers, just boiling in bicarbonate solution will not totally suffice.

[taiwanluthiers]

So how do you properly neutralize NC?

 

I know you can always keep it in solution with acetone but the problem is acetone evaporates quickly.

 

I know of ways to retard NC lacquer's evaporation rate though... we add about 1% of Butyl Cellusolve and that causes the acetone to evaporate slower. Too much and it will evaporate too slowly. We have to do this because we use NC lacquer to finish musical instruments, and in a humid environment like Taiwan the lacquer almost always blushes due to trapped moisture in the finish coat. The BCS slows down its evaporation rate enough to allow the moisture to escape giving a clear, smooth finish.

 

Other solvents like MEK, Butyl Acetate may be used to improve its evaporation rate (could be really helpful in parlon bound stars)

 

Honestly I see no reason to make NC, if I needed NC lacquer I just go buy some instrument lacquer, its pretty much NC with some plasticizer to make it less brittle. Besides, making NC may be illegal in my country as that could fall under the gun control laws which provides for very severe penalties (including death) for violation. BP is mostly used in fireworks and rockets so a lot of ways that can be explained away (unless you got a bunch of steel pipes, timers, detonators, and nails which tells investigators you're trying to make a destructive device, which falls under gun control laws) but the only use for NC aside from NC lacquer is guns. True instrument lacquer isn't as "flammable or explosive" (something you obviously want in pyro) but let's face it, you just want to coat stuff like fuses to waterproof it and provide a pyro friendly moisture barrier, just about any 1k finishing lacquer will do for the purpose and you can buy it at a hardware store a lot cheaper than you can make them. In fact 100% NC is quite brittle anyways. The acids you use for making NC will cause pyro mixtures, particularly chlorate based mixture to immediately ignite, not something you want even in trace amounts.

 

Now if you want to make flash paper that's fine but make just enough to use it immediately, don't store it.

[NightHawkInLight]

Death as a penalty for violating gun control laws? That's some depressing irony.

[Mumbles]

I'm not going to get into any specifics as to preparation or stabilization of nitrocellulose outside of the HE section.

[taiwanluthiers]

Death as a penalty for violating gun control laws? That's some depressing irony.

 

Mostly for smuggling and stuff... a lot of these laws were drafted in the martial law era and somehow remained on the book, just like Hitler's gun control law in Germany. China is like that too, hell there are probably more crimes you get death for in China than say jail time...

 

Counterfeiting was punishable by death in Taiwan too but they changed it several years ago to not include death.

 

Back to NC, I am not sure why NC fits within the scope of high explosives as it's not really used as such. It doesn't matter though I see no reason to be making them because there's enough common items that has it.

[Short5]

Not to get off topic but do the same safety concerns apply for NC lacquer made from single base smokeless powder? I was unaware of it decomposing over time. I have had it dry in a container before and I just popped the solid disk out of the bottom and lit it. It was unremarkable and burned not violently. Should it not be stored?

 

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Commercial NC has been properly stabilized so that it doesn't go off in storage. The issue with homemade NC is that it hasn't been properly stabilized and the acid can cause the NC to decompose in storage. If commercial NC would go off after being mixed with acetone then it would have been considered 1.4 or even 1.3 but currently in the US they are only considered flammable solid so there are no special storage or transportation requirements unlike blackpowder.

 

However single based smokeless powder has graphite coating on it so if you don't mind the blackness they would work fine as is. I just go with 1k finishing lacquer because you can get them in a country that treats guns like it's the spawn of Satan.

[ANFO]

What do you use now? I've been trying to find an alternative to pulling an endless amount of cotton balls apart...

 

I didn't even know you could use NC for HE, I prefer quick primes and big handheld fireballs

 

NC can produce some pretty big bangs if its restricted in something, I'm sure they shot a 50 kilo rocket out a tube with it on mythbusters at one point? Edit: I accidentally revived a year old post my bad

Edited August 14, 2012 by ANFO

[Mumbles]

Commercial nitrocellulose will still degrade over time. There are additives that make it better, but nothing is perfect. The most important thing you can do to help keep it stable it to keep it out of direct sunlight. Metal containers commonly used for solvents are pretty common. If you have a solution mixed up, remember to keep the lid and threads clean. It's easy to stick the caps on. A rubber pad or wrench and some elbow grease will open them up should it ever happen.

[Short5]

Thank you

[Peret]

There are different sorts of nitrocellulose, depending on how many nitrate groups are attached to the molecule ("degree of nitration"). Ping pong balls and guitar lacquer are not the same as guncotton (trinitrocellulose) - which, incidentally, was the first practical high explosive, mostly used in naval mines and torpedoes because it could be kept saturated with water and still detonate from shock. But whatever, anyone who tries to make their own is a reckless fool. Aside from the dangers of a serious accident with the acid, you have no idea what degree of nitration you get, and it is by no means easily neutralized with a bit of bicarbonate, since the NC adsorbs the acid and won't let it go.

[taiwanluthiers]

I can bet the type of NC lacquer used to coat fuses is no different than ping pong ball or guitar coating NC. Like I said, there is absolutely no reason to make NC. If you live in a gun friendly country like the US you can buy smokeless powders, if not instrument or wood finishing lacquer will work just as fine. Edited August 15, 2012 by taiwanluthiers

[Mumbles]

The nitrocellulose used in pingpong balls, wood finishes, or coatings may be in a basic sense derived from similar types of NC, but that is where the similarities end. They will have greatly differing additives in greatly differing quantities. Pingpong balls for instance generally have had a substantial camphor content added. Coatings generally have plasticizers. Wood finishes will have a variety of things depending on the desired effect.

 

All of these will be greatly different than the nitrocellulose used to produce smokeless powders. While they may all work on some basic level, not all NC is created equally, or will behave the same in compositions.

[Seymour]

Commercial nitrocellulose will still degrade over time.

 

Very true. While I've never had NC ignite in storage, a number of times I've come across commercial NC decomposing, giving off HNO3 and nitrogen oxides and had to destroy it.