Barium poisoning

[Givat]

Hi all,

I read a lot in this forum people who are trying to avoid using water soluble barium compounds because of barium poisoning.

In theMSDS for barium nitrate it said you need 355 mg/kilo to get into your body oral to be poisoned.

 

I'm under the normal weight for a 23 years old - I weigh 59 kilo. it's mean I need to eat 21(!) grams of barium nitrate to be poisoned. that's a lot!

 

So why are you all so afraid from it?

some one know how quick does it clean from your system? and does it damages your organs- kidneys, lungs, the nervous system - even if you get into your body only small increments? maybe it does permanent damage?

 

thanks.

Edited August 3, 2011 by Givat

[fredhappy]

If you're living in a secluded space, it is usable I guess. The thing you have to worry about is spills, you always spill something somewhere. It is not like you cannot work with barium compounds safely, it is more the building up of contamination in your workspace/body what worries me. Dust is always collecting on hard te clean places. Barium compounds have the nasty habit of accumulating in your body, since it is being recognised by it as calcium. Your body stores it in your bone marrow, just as it does with calcium.

 

You are talking about acute toxicity. This is manageble thru protective clothing, breathing protection and goggles. But working with this compound means automaticaly absorbing some thru spills or otherwise. You never work with these chemicals just once, if it works for you, you will use it again. If you live in a seccluded area, got a workshed in a meadow or something, I guess you could use it.

 

I simply choose not to use the following chemicals;

 

1: all barium compounds

2: stibnite/antimony trisulphide

3: potassium dichromate

4: oxalates

5: red lead/lead compounds

 

Too bad I can't make certain cool effects, I accept that. My goal is always to keep the toxicity down. I choose not to work with the toxic stuff, and try find alternatives. There always is an alternative. Unfortunately in pyrotechnics, what works best is often toxic.

Edited August 3, 2011 by fredhappy

[r1dermon]

Baritosis is a condition resulting from inhalation...

 

Better safe than sorry.

[Ralph]

if youve ever had barium poison you understand why people avoid it there have also been recorded doses well bellow your figure and LD50 is not a set amount but an average barium is a non cumulative toxin I assume the damage done is reperable

[NightHawkInLight]

Barium sulfate is used to dye soft tissue for xrays. I don't know if that shows that some barium compounds are less toxic than we tend to believe, or if it just shows what nasty crap you can be pumped full of in the name of medicine.

[Richtee]

Barium sulfate is used to dye soft tissue for xrays. I don't know if that shows that some barium compounds are less toxic than we tend to believe, or if it just shows what nasty crap you can be pumped full of in the name of medicine.

I have drank it...by the quart...for contrast for CAT scans. I am assuming it's the sulfate form, however. MUCH less absorbable than the nitrate.

[Mumbles]

I've had quarts of BaSO4 smoothies as well, terrible tasting, but not so bad for you. It is insoluble in your digestive system, and can't be absorbed through your organs, so it passes through without any problems. Most other barium salts are either soluble in water, or soluble in your digestive system somewhere, which is why they're toxic.

 

As someone who has had barium poisoning, I can assure you that it sucks. Vommiting, migranes, and other fun things are involved

 

If you want a safe guard against it, you can swig some magnesium sulfate solution before or after working with it. It is soluble barium ions in your blood and muscles that cause issues. The magnesium sulfate sequesters it, and allows it to be cleared out of your system. It's probably cleaned out of your system just as quickly as any other mineral salt. It's leaving in your urine, so it'd probably pretty much completely gone within 24hr.

 

The above value of 355mg/kg that you quoted is the LD50 for some animal. Which means a lethal dose to half the population. You can be acutely poisoned much below this value. I've seen values around 1-2g to see some onset of symptoms. As Ralph mentioned, it is not bioaccumulative, and even if it was it's not harmful unless free in your blood stream. If it were sequestered with calcium into bones or cell organelles, it wouldn't really cause a problem as it'd be slowly released over a few months probably not changing your natural barium levels noticeably. Similar things like Strontium-90 are harmful because they're radioactive and can reek havoc because they are isolated in one place. Barium has no naturally occurring radioactive isotopes.

 

Even though I've had it, I really don't see any reason to be afraid of it. If you handle it properly with gloves and a respirator, you'll be just fine.

[Givat]

thanks all.

 

fred, I also decided not to use 3#,4# and 5# from your list because of toxicity. and I can't get 2# so no toxicity problem here too. =]

Mumbles, how did you got the barium poisoning? you ate some barium compound? inhale?

[WSM]

Mild barium poisoning is easier to get than you think. First of all, only soluble barium is poisonous, Barium sulfate is insoluble and fairly non-toxic. So any formula with barium sulfate won't poison you (because of the barium that is, but other nasties may be in the mix, so learn your materials!).

 

If you make green stars and some of the mix gets airborn as you're mixing or rolling stars or whatever; you may be exposing yourself to toxic barium compounds. If, after working with barium nitrate or chlorate, you start to get flu symptoms and they go away after a day or two; guess what?! You may have had mild barium poisoning .

 

I say mild, but trust me, it doesn't feel like mild anything. It is a seriously rough experience.

 

I've had it. It's no fun!

 

Wear protective clothing, gloves and eye protection and wash well after working with soluble barium compounds and you'll probably have no problems. Protect yourself and others ! Oh yeah, (thanks Mumbles) don't take off your respirator till everything is stowed, and you've washed up!

 

WSM

Edited August 4, 2011 by WSM

[Mumbles]

I was finishing up working for the day, at the time stored my chemicals primarily in plastic bags. I had cleaned up my work space, wiped everything down, and cleaned up myself. I was putting stuff away, and plopped the bag down on a table, and apparently there was a hole in it. A dust cloud flew out and I obviously inhaled some. I was wearing gloves, but considering I was only putting stuff away I had my respirator off.

 

The worst of it really only lasted for a couple of hours. I had an agonizing migrane, and was vomiting for a while. After a nap I actually felt much better, but still wasn't quite right until the next day or so.

[Seymour]

I personally believe there is a lot of hype about Barium.

 

Lethal dose is indeed very high. I've heard the figure four grams, much lower than twenty one grams, but to accidentally ingest even one gram is going to take some difficulty, especially if precautions have been taken.

 

As far as I am aware, Barium is either excreted quite quickly (mostly in urine), or used like calcium in the bones (where it's locked away, relatively harmless). As such, I do not consider accumulation to be a significant hazard.

 

Furthermore, both by taking soluble sulfate salts to precipitate the Barium out as BaSO4, and by taking Potassium salts (Barium seems to act by depleting Potassium in certain important parts of your body) Poisoning can be easily treated. I have a kilo of K2SO4 sitting around for this.

 

Unless someone can point to a good source showing that Barium ingestion in small doses over time is going to have a serious long term effect, I'm not going to consider it strongly accumulative, probably less so than oxalates, and thus I'm pretty relaxed with it.

 

Yes, I've had poisoning, relatively mild, several times. It is very much like having too much to drink the night before (as Mumbles's descriptions show).

 

I have been poisoned by handling several kilos of saturated Barium nitrate solution with bare hands, probably aided by a few cuts. While I certainly don't suggest this kind of casual attitude should be adopted, I'm really only hesitant to do it again due to the discomfort.

 

First of all, only soluble barium is poisonous,

 

Perhaps this is accurate, but it has the possibility to be misinterpreted. The missing factor is thst it has to be soluble, OR able to be converted in to a soluble salt in your body. Barium carbonate is pretty much insoluble. Not quite to the level or sulfate, but you're not going to get an appreciable quantity in solution.

 

As mumbles said :

 

Most other barium salts are either soluble in water, or soluble in your digestive system somewhere, which is why they're toxic.

 

Barium carbonate will happily react in HCl solution, so that in your stomach, you're going to get the highly soluble Barium Chloride.

 

Got to think of solubility in tandem with reactions within the body.

 

Just so you all know, Barium nitrate has a flavour based on salty (of course), with a smooth, creamy note due to the salt dissolving, and a peppery thing going on too.

[50AE]

Like Seymour says, it is overexaggerated.

 

I have always worked with barium containing compositions bare handed, as I do not like gloves. I have not experienced any ways of barium poisoning though. It is not going to be easy for me, I'm a 1,96cm tall 100kg dude.

 

The chemicals I fear are the cancerogenic and bioaccumulative ones, like Cr+6 and lead compounds, I always use gloves for these.

 

With time I have learned that it's a good thing to scare the newbies with some extra safety, like we do with barium. Like we do with the potassium chlorate. Safety is very important, especially for the new ones, just starting to explore the hobby.

 

Once we pyro start to get experienced, we tend to jump over some rules we have learned in the past.

[Richtee]

 

 

Once we pyro start to get experienced, we tend to jump over some rules we have learned in the past.

What is problematic is the new guys reading this...

[Potassiumchlorate]

*Bump*

 

I have had fatigue and a feeling of being "down" for several days. I have been working with two barium chlorate compositions. Might these be to blame for my feeling ill?

 

I also have reflux problems, totally unrelated to the hobby. Might be that as well

[Mumbles]

My experience with barium poisoning was much more acute. It only lasted an afternoon or so, and it was pretty obvious something was definitely wrong. I've read reports of issues being present for days, but that was not my experience. As long as you're using good safety measures, I wouldn't expect any form of barium poisoning.

[Algenco]

I'm not concerned enough about anything on that list to not use it.

Follow good safety practices and everything is fine.

Nothing we use is good for you with the possible exception of Magnesium

One well known pyro that made lots of shells commercially said he had worked with dichromate for years without a respirator and the worst experience was nose bleed, I wouldn't recomend such practices myself, I wear glove/mask, but it doesn't scare me

[marks265]

I've tried to get poisoned. So far I have been unsuccessful. Guess I'll have to try harder next year.

[NightHawkInLight]

I'm not concerned enough about anything on that list to not use it.

Follow good safety practices and everything is fine.

Nothing we use is good for you with the possible exception of Magnesium

One well known pyro that made lots of shells commercially said he had worked with dichromate for years without a respirator and the worst experience was nose bleed, I wouldn't recomend such practices myself, I wear glove/mask, but it doesn't scare me

 

After coating about 2 lbs of Mg with dichromate a few years back I became very noticeably ill that afternoon and felt off for several days afterward. There wasn't much dust and I was working outdoors in a breeze, but with no mask. I would at a minimum wear a mask if I were to ever give it another go.

[Peret]

Personally I think the dichromate scare is overblown, thanks to Erin Brockovitch and too many hyperactive lawyers. Hexavalent chromium is somewhat harmful and I wouldn't take a bath in it, but it's not an acute poison - generally it needs prolonged exposure to do any real damage. You're more likely to suffer from its corrosive nature than get poisoned. Wear gloves and a dust mask, and don't get any in your eyes. From the OSHA web page on HC,

 

"Hexavalent chromium can irritate the nose, throat, and lungs. Repeated or prolonged exposure can damage the mucous membranes of the nasal passages and result in ulcers. In severe cases, exposure causes perforation of the septum (the wall separating the nasal passages). Breathing small amounts of hexavalent chromium even for long periods does not cause respiratory tract irritation in most people. Some employees become allergic to hexavalent chromium so that inhaling the chromate compounds can cause asthma symptoms such as wheezing and shortness of breath. ... Prolonged skin contact can result in dermatitis and skin ulcers. ... All forms of hexavalent chromium are regarded as carcinogenic to workers. The risk of developing lung cancer increases with the amount of hexavalent chromium inhaled and the length of time the worker is exposed."

[Potassiumchlorate]

I must admit that I didn't use any protection other than when sieving the compositions together (but then I actually used a gasmask), although they barely dust, and I roll them by hand, slowly, in pretty small plastic bowls. Edited October 19, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate

[NightHawkInLight]

Irritation to the throat and lungs sounds about right for what I experienced for a few days, along with pressure behind my eyes for the first night if I remember correctly which could have just been caused by irritated sinuses. Nothing any worse than a mild cold, but a very different sort of dry throat and lungs that I haven't experienced from a cold before.