Consistent quality charcoal

[oldguy]

It is known, that pine charcoal is good for producing long lasting sparks whereas aspen, willow, balsa & some other charcoal yields fast black powder. According to a source, the Chinese use kenaf charcoal in their fast black powder. Charcoal prepared from wood with syringyl lignin, might account for fast burning rate. According to another source, sulphurless black powder burned faster than powder with sulphur. This might indicate that hydroquinone to quinone type oxidation reactions take place in some charcoals.

 

Starting material affects the characteristics of resulting charcoal.

 

Starting material should be reduced small enough to ensure fast and uniform heating.

 

Both charring temperature and time strongly affects the characteristics of resulting charcoal.

 

Charring temperature of 250'C is too low.

 

Charring duration at 300'C (572 F) should be few hours but not over 8 hours.

 

Charring duration at 350'C (662 F) should never exceed one hour.

 

Control of charring duration at over 350'C will be difficult.

 

Charring should be stopped when the smoke has ceased.

 

Charring retort should have a temperature controller.

 

Charring retort should be heated uniformly.

 

What I gather from this you want the best possible wood to start with (debatable as to which). You want to reduce the size of the raw material down in equal size, roughly something like 1 X 6, 8, 12 inch pieces (dependent on retort size). You want a means to evenly heat the retort, with some type temperature gauge & control. Once loaded, you want to heat the retort evenly to 572 F for 4 or 5 hours ( until; retort stops emitting smoke), but no more than 8 hours. Or, to 662 F no more than 1 hour.

 

Given that criteria, if one wants to make near optimal charcoal consistently. A good retort container & means to heat it, with a temperature control appears necessary. I thought about a new 5 gallon metal paint type can, with a metal lid for a retort. Then realized I have an old 40 quart stovetop sterilizer (built like a tank) that would work. Which I could heat with a propane banjo burner.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

　

Edited July 23, 2011 by oldguy

[AdmiralDonSnider]

While I see the advantages of some of these rules, they are also hard to observe in every day pyro. Some seem to apply to large retorts only, e.g. I can´t imagine a small one requiring a charring time of several hours.

 

Von Maltitz deals with much you have mentioned in his second book. If I remember correctly charring temp is not that crucial as long as a certain (high) temp is not surpassed, where the perfomance drops remarkably.

 

When talking about consistency one should also take the option of blending results into account. Quality deviations from batch to batch are minimized if the results are blended in a big container, which the charcoal for pyro use is taken from. Increasing the retort size also helps, but - of course - more charcoal will be affected in case of bad outcomes.

 

In the end - for me - it comes down to: which effort makes sense for useful and consistent outcomes. In small scale production, using uniformly split, debarked, quality wood and charring it in e.g. a wood fire until a certain point (determined by experience) of carbonization is reached, then combining the outcomes to make a consistent blend...all that has worked very well for me.

[oldguy]

In the short time I have been involved with pyro, I simply bought bags of the lightest bagged lump charcoal I could find.

Then reduced it down by crushing, using a SS blender, then screening.

 

I just thought it is time to make my own. But, want a fairly tight degree of consistency.

To get that, it appears you have to use a degree of controls, e.g. same wood, same size, same retort, same temperature, same charring time.

 

I found a place where I can get truck loads of what appears to be “pine” wood pallets free.

They are light, bone dry, easy to cut apart in consistent size with a skill saw.

So, I am going to start with those.

Rather than chase down any specific wood species.

Because the source is close, consistent & FREE.

 

I also know a place where I can get pick up truck loads of mill ends very cheap, which is another alternative wood source.

 

 

[dagabu]

In the short time I have been involved with pyro, I simply bought bags of the lightest bagged lump charcoal I could find.

Then reduced it down by crushing, using a SS blender, then screening.

 

I just thought it is time to make my own. But, want a fairly tight degree of consistency.

To get that, it appears you have to use a degree of controls, e.g. same wood, same size, same retort, same temperature, same charring time.

 

I found a place where I can get truck loads of what appears to be "pine" wood pallets free.

They are light, bone dry, easy to cut apart in consistent size with a skill saw.

So, I am going to start with those.

Rather than chase down any specific wood species.

Because the source is close, consistent & FREE.

 

I also know a place where I can get pick up truck loads of mill ends very cheap, which is another alternative wood source.

 

 

 

If its white pine, you will have yourself a little cottage industry if you wish.

 

-dag

[oldguy]

Most of the pallets do in fact appear to be "white" pine.

 

Not really interested in a "cottage industry".

 

But certainly willing to share.

 

Secondly, long hang "sparks" interest me.

 

It would seem to me that if any given charcoal was porous enough. Reduced to around +30 mesh, then given a bath in a solution of Alc, AP & Stearic acid.

You "might" end up with a bright very slow burning large spark effect. It might also be interesting to add a tiny bit of spherical 300 mesh titanium to the mix.

 

I'm also trying to chase down a source of the type phenolic resin used in many Chinese fireworks. That might also be an interesting additive.

Edited July 24, 2011 by oldguy

[dan999ification]

this will get you consistant results alright plenty of tinkering to be done.

i also think that the cook time would be way too long even for this size i recently cooked a 10k [raw weight] batch of unknown pine furniture in under two hours on a wood fire but it is very inefficient in fuel to charcoal.

the way the retort is heated would increase the cook time though.

different charcoals give different yields and it can vary in look and texture as im sure you know,

after making only willow for a while i was suprised the first time i made pine to see it didnt rattle in the tin i thought it was all gone when i shook it but it had swollen and packed solid , the pallet wood may also swell and fill the retort.

 

dan.

[oldguy]

Temp would rule the cook time. Higher = shorter, cooler = longer

 

I will have to tinker with a few loads,

 

My prospective retort will pressurize up to 30 psi.

 

But has duel safety release’s that vent at around 20 psi.

 

If cooked under pressure (at least for awhile) you get a far higher yield.

 

This is an informative site about charcoal & BP.

 

http://www.musketeer.ch/blackpowder/charcoal.html

 

 

[Bonny]

Temp would rule the cook time. Higher = shorter, cooler = longer

 

I will have to tinker with a few loads,

 

My prospective retort will pressurize up to 30 psi.

 

But has duel safety release’s that vent at around 20 psi.

 

If cooked under pressure (at least for awhile) you get a far higher yield.

 

That's interesting, I had no idea pressure could increase the yield. When I was not seeming to have enough, I just went to a bigger retort. I know my retort when loaded with pine will blow a 12-18" flame and sound like a jet engine from the gas pressures, no idea on PSI though.

[oldguy]

Bonny,

 

For that very reason commercial charcoal for BP is made under pressure.

How do you heat yours?

In other words, what ignites the gas flame?

[dagabu]

Temp would rule the cook time. Higher = shorter, cooler = longer

 

I will have to tinker with a few loads,

 

My prospective retort will pressurize up to 30 psi.

 

But has duel safety release's that vent at around 20 psi.

 

If cooked under pressure (at least for awhile) you get a far higher yield.

 

This is an informative site about charcoal & BP.

 

http://www.musketeer...r/charcoal.html

 

 

 

Incredible! 60% yield!!!! Three times the amount of charcoal with less fuel (I would guess), why dont you cook me off about 50# of it for me to try?

 

-dag

[oldguy]

Incredible! 60% yield!!!! Three times the amount of charcoal with less fuel (I would guess), why dont you cook me off about 50# of it for me to try?

-dag

 

That is exactly why I am going to use a retort I can pressurize.

Off tommarow to get a pick up truck load of pallets.

 

BTW, that pressure cooker is not exactly cheap.

Here is a link to a new model.

 

http://www.allamericancooker.com/allamerican1941xsterilizer.htm

Edited July 25, 2011 by oldguy

[Bonny]

Bonny,

 

For that very reason commercial charcoal for BP is made under pressure.

How do you heat yours?

In other words, what ignites the gas flame?

 

Wood fire in the backyard firepit of course!

[oldguy]

It looks like most people that make homemade charcoal from wood for pyrotechnic use do so without much or any consideration for the temperature it is being charred at & for how long. Most appear to use a vented metal container of one sort or another, place the loaded container in a fire pit, fire place, wood stove, open top metal drum or whatever else they have handy to build a fire in. Then just roast it, until the container stops emitting gas - flame - smoke, or until the heating fire itself burns out.

 

From what info I have gathered, that doesn’t seen to be the way to make high quality consistent batches of pyro charcoal. Especially so, if you go to the time, effort & expense of gathering up the preferred woods to make pyro charcoal from. I would think under or over charring it would nullify the preferred performance characteristics of the better quality wood.

 

 

[oldguy]

To get the temps right takes a good thermocouple rig.

 

But they aren’t very expensive.

 

There are many listed for kilns on eBay.

 

Making it under slight pressure is a bit tricky.

 

But not that tough to do.

 

 

[garyrapp55]

Oldguy, do you have results yet?

 

 

[oldguy]

Oldguy, do you have results yet?

 

I ran one small batch, which resulted in a around a 50% yeild & blazing fast.

 

Anything under high pressure + including volitile gas can create a bomb, so I am taking it slow.

 

One issue is the pressure release valve on the cooker I have.

 

I have to add some tubing to move the valve away from the top of the cooker.

There is not a lot of info on the net on making charcoal under pressure, so this is a learning process.

 

I was out of town for a week at the placer mine in Idaho & just got back.

More results ASAP

[FrankRizzo]

I think it would be difficult to deal with all the tars condensing from the wood gas. Pressure relief valves would become useless pretty quick I think. Temperature would be much easier to process control.

 

The vent on my retort whistles pretty good while making charcoal. I would guess that the internal pressure is somewhere around 5-10PSI during the main gasification.

Edited August 21, 2011 by FrankRizzo

[oldguy]

I think it would be difficult to deal with all the tars condensing from the wood gas. Pressure relief valves would become useless pretty quick I think. Temperature would be much easier to process control.

 

The vent on my retort whistles pretty good while making charcoal. I would guess that the internal pressure is somewhere around 5-10PSI during the main gasification.

 

You are correct, the tar is gumming up the pressure relief valve I used.

I am moving the valve away from the top of my retort via tubing & going to use a differnt type valve that will go to 15 psi.

Which should not clog. But, you never know until you test it.

 

I doubt yours is going to 5-10 psi.

If yours is continiously vented, it would never reach more than 1 or at most 2 psi for a certain duration while the bulk of volitile gas vents off.

 

If the gas/tar is ignited, it sort of creates an illusion of high pressure flame.

As the ignition of the gas, ejecting from a small vent or nozzle looks like a high pressure flame as it mixs with outside air/oxygen & burns off.

 

From the single test I did under pressure with white pine, the resulting charcoal was extremely porous & recovery was around 50%, rather than 20.

When I made BP out of it, it was hot & the fastest I ever made. At least it appeared that way, igniting a tiny trail of it in a 3ft long angle iron.

[pyrogeorge]

To get the temps right takes a good thermocouple rig.

 

But they aren’t very expensive.

 

There are many listed for kilns on eBay.

 

Making it under slight pressure is a bit tricky.

 

But not that tough to do.

I never pay attention on temprature when i make charcoal and i make excellent quality charcoal

[50AE]

Charcoal cooking quality is more important for charcoal fires, whereas for black powder it doesn't really matter. What if my BP is slightly slower? I will just put a little more.

 

I have found out that cooked pine under low temperature makes very good sparks. The charcoal was more tar smelly and it was sticky.

But seriously, having to go back to small cookers like this? I like the double barrel method, where I can make 10kg of charcoal at a time, it's very efficient because it cooks by his own gases, and I can make 30kg of charcoal for a whole day. Then, If I need the less cooked pieces - they are in the center.

Edited August 21, 2011 by 50AE

[Peret]

Charcoal cooking quality is more important for charcoal fires, whereas for black powder it doesn't really matter. What if my BP is slightly slower? I will just put a little more.

I have to disagree with that. The most important thing about BP is consistency. I don't know about you, but I have to know before I light the fuse that the weight of lift powder I used will have the same performance time after time. I don't want to find out I needed "a little more" because my shell makes a round trip.

[50AE]

Never encountered such a problems. Seriously, degrading BP's performance because of difference in charcoal consistency? Never happened to me.

I've never made bad charcoal because of cooking issues - undercooked and the BP has worked very well. Overcooked - how can I know? My BP has always been fast and my shells have been always high up in the sky.

[dan999ification]

Never encountered such a problems. Seriously, degrading BP's performance because of difference in charcoal consistency? Never happened to me.

I've never made bad charcoal because of cooking issues - undercooked and the BP has worked very well. Overcooked - how can I know? My BP has always been fast and my shells have been always high up in the sky.

 

 

same here but i am curious ive made willow with as low as 10% yield never over 25% bp is fast and most of the time i dont use 10% b/w lift, ive read the link a while ago and it says that the browner charcoal makes the best bp because it effectivly has more fuel yet i cooked some "brown" charcoal to test and it seems to bubble a little while heated and smoulders longer than the lighter black charcoal maybe still a bit undercooked, 10% yield for me has made the fastest bp, do you see any other benefits in high yield cooking does it also give better performance having not cremated it all quickly. never really concerned me with the amount i use but there is something to go at by the looks of it.

 

dan.

[Peret]

The only brown charcoal I've ever read about is the partly converted rye straw used in military "cocoa powder" in the late 1800s for very large caliber guns (over 12 inches). Also known as SBC, for slow burning cocoa.

[Mumbles]

The cocoa powder is however more sensitive than traditional black powder for whatever reason.