Phenolic resin C48>H42>O7

[Mia]

Mia I don't get it,

You're saying that u have phenolic resin that is superior to every other binder.

But why don't you give us the type that u use?

I get it that u don't share formulas but surely you can give us the type and brand of resin that u use.

This is what I use no hexamine needed works with water alcohol, hope this helps.

http://www.nitroparis.com/ing/producto-detalle.php?pk=69#cat8

[hindsight]

Pyrojig-- Thanks for you reply. Sorry, I should have framed my question better. Since my plan is to slice or press stars I was interested in the ratio by weight of phenolic resin to your comps, and hadn't considered rolling. As phenolic resin is a fuel as well as a binder, there would be an effect on oxidizer/fuel ratios, while some ratio of binder/comp would be necessary for proper hardness. I'm guessing that in the ranges of effective binding the fuel effect is not changed significantly in your recipe for rolling stars. I have since learned that overall 6% is the weight percent for using phenolic resin in star comps.

[pyrojig]

You are correct. It works great making a laq. out of it. It also works great as you stated as a 6% by weight to the total comp. You would wet the comp with the needed alc. and press into a patty, then cut . You will usually use more alc. in your comp to wet it than is needed to get the resin activated .

I see your concern as to using the laq sys. , that your going to go off the ratios the comp calls for and get a fuel rich or lean comp. This is where it gets more tricky. I do get it pretty close to the perfect ratios , but that comes from years of rolling . IN your application it would be best to use the alc separate , as you will use more than needed to do the trick. From my experience and others the red gum can be replaced 1-1 for it. Dextrin comps can be bound this way, just leave out the dex . in the main comp.

[Mia]

The tests I have done when using phenolic I have based around the Veline system of star manufacture dropping both red gum and dextrin and using phenolic at 8% one thing is strange (and I think pyrojig mentioned this, with cut stars it works fine but rolling with phenolic works best if used in the spray bottle direct on the stars, I do have some phenolic direct from china from a fireworks factory and it is a lump of amber looking compound that looks like it fell out of a pine tree dam hard to air float! As in my response about my supply of phenolic from nitro Paris it is water soluble, the picture from nitro Paris depicts an off white powder but on receipt of the chemical it is an orange powder slightly clumpy and needs to be broke down but it is phenomenal to work with giving rock hard stars that can survive some seriously hard breaks.

[hindsight]

Pyrojig-- I appreciate the practical info.

[pyrojig]

You'r very welcome.

Mia has shared some very useful info on these resins and applications . This info had inspired me to expand beyond the common way of doing things and apply diff. binders into commonly used comps. I have been most pleased with the results so far. There has been only one that was tricky to dial in (U/F binding stars) with high metal content.

There are many resins and binders that need research and developing out there. Many would make awesome binders for comps, and not stretch the wallet.I look forward to new and creative minds at work , not afraid to get their hands dirty and try something new.

[ddewees]

 

It's very important to screen this stuff to remove the nails and bits of glass that are embedded in some of the chunks Coffee grinders beware.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess you warned me ... is it actually glass?

 

I tried grinding this stuff today, and have been finding (what looks like) chunks of glass too. The largest piece is about the size of a golf ball (what's left of it). It actually bound up the coffee grinder, and cracked the side of the plastic container.

 

You can definately tell when it's in there... the other stuff seems to grind up quite easily. The stuff that won't grind (in my coffee grinder) is almost completely transparent/clear.

 

 

Here is a picture:

 

http://i1149.photobucket.com/albums/o588/SaltLakeAreaPyros/20131122_123645_zps29b671dd.jpg

[FrankRizzo]

No, it's just a piece that was big and round enough not to get a "square" impact with the blades to fracture it, but hit hard enough to throw it. Put it in a ziplock bag sitting on a few layers of newsprint (to recover the material that will pierce the bag), and whack it with a hammer. It will break up fairly easily into smaller chunks that will process in the coffee grinder.

Edited November 23, 2013 by FrankRizzo

[ddewees]

Heh... you're right.

 

I whacked it on the counter and it basically shattered.

[Seymour]

 

Interesting thread this as I do have phenolic resin brand name Resinox to name a few! It is water soluble and you do not need any other binder! So red gum and Dextrin can be dropped typical drying time at room temperature is around 3hrs, another interesting thing is you can light a star with no prime visco works well or just a simple BP prime as a guarantee, colour of the stars is also improved no end, another interesting thing is if you roll a crackle mix with phenolic and then roll a colour around that you get a very nice effect, I think the Admiral has got his information right.

Is it available? Well I picked up 25killos without a problem as long as you know your brand names, hope this helps.

 

Mia, I have gotten around to trying Resinox as a binder using only water as a solvent. I would like to second what you are saying about it in this regard, with it binding a composition with Potassium nitrate as a quick experiment. While I have not made actual stars with this method, I was impressed by the strength after drying for a few days.

 

Myself included, I think most of us primarily use more expensive solvents than water, but as you point out, this is not always necessary.

[Jonathan]

Mixed by volume: 1/2 tsp. KBrO₃ + !/4 tsp PTFE + 1/4 tsp. phenolic resin + 1/4 Tsp. Mg-Al. Produced big, black, smoky flash; little residue.

[hindsight]

Ordenblitz,

Your clear description of the various forms/species of phenolic is appreciated. Some of what you have stated, I had tried to mine (incompletely) from various sources; some was previously a mystery. Everything you said seems reasonable, but I am a little confused by the phrase referring to Novalacs, "...but essentially the lower the molecular weight (more free phenol).."

And since you are unfamiliar to me, the curiosity arises as to how it is that you know so much about phenolic resins.

Welcome to this forum, again, since you have been a member since 2006 . --hindsight

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 13, 2014 by hindsight

[nater]

In addition to using alcohol to bind shells with phenolic resin, some have been adding a small amount of hexamine to the phenolic resin and curing comets in a warm drying box. It certainly sounds promising, and I just ordered some to try it out for myself.

[nukleofil]

Hello from Russia! I know that the Chinese use this phenolic resin as a bunch, but I did not get to roll star, they crumble. What could be the reason? Not suitable resin?

[hindsight]

Привет nukleofil! I have used phenolic resin for cut stars using absolute ethanol as a solvent. They dry fast even in high humidity and they come out hard as a rock. It's not been labeled as such, but I believe my phenolic resin is a Novolac resin. I have always been careful to wet and work my star comps well with ethanol using a sprayer to mist them as I work to solubilize the resin. As Nater and ordenblitz have mentioned above, using hexamine to cross-link the resin has been recommended, and that was my initial plan, but 1/8 -1/2 inch stars haven't needed it. I don't have a good star roller yet so I can't comment on using it for rolled stars. Let me know if I can help you.

[Mumbles]

Were you unable to get the composition to adhere together to form actual stars, or did the stars once dry not have good structural integrity?

[dagabu]

Thanks to a licensed friend out of state and a very curious chap to boot, I was able to try out a new composition (patented comps are close but far enough away to keep from infringement) for whistle rockets.

 

The mix itself is nothing new, 76 parts perc, 23 parts benzo (potassium in this case), 1 part copper oxychloride. Here is where we left the road and went off on a tangent. Instead of any phlegmatizer at all, we used 6 parts of phenolic resin and 0.8 parts hexamine instead, using denatured alcohol for the whetting agent.

 

Kneaded well in a baggy, removed in small lumps, rolled out on a plastic bag into rods 3/4" wide and about 8" long. The tube was placed on a base with a full increment of head space, the rod of whistle was dropped into the open end of the tube and a specially made rammer was pushed through a guide that was fit over the top of the tube. The rammer was pressed by hand until it was flat against the guide, the guide was then taken off, the rammer was spun by hand a little to make for a nice end, extra comp squished out along the top and was removed by a knife.

 

The rammer spindle was put back into the nozzle hole to dress up the nozzle a bit and twisted until the face was flat and smooth. The spindle was withdrawn and the now filled tube set into the drying box to cure.

 

We dont know if this will work or not, it may CATO, it may not fly, the drying box may burn down... The hex will cure at temps higher than 140° (I am told) and the denatured alcohol will be driven out leaving a solid grain.

 

These rockets will be fired November 1st at a club shoot, we will find out then if they work or not. 1 gram of flash will top the first rocket, if it works, I will add a festival ball with a 2 second delay.

 

My impressions:

• The making of the whistle was nearly the same overall price per kilo to make as the standard method, we only used 60g of resin and 8g of hex plus 30g of alcohol to make the comp.
• The kneading felt just like making it normally.
• No drying time needed, it cures in the drying box.
• No press is needed, it is all done by hand, to tools are needed.
• The length of the base insert determines headspace and the spindle size determines the thrust. Infinite adjustments can be made infield by how far the spindle is pushed into the comp and how far the base insert is pushed into the head of the tube.
• Five rockets were "made" in 10 minutes by hand, BY HAND!
• No pressure rings, curls, deformation to the tube or increment soft spots. No glazed increment boundaries.
• IF it works as planned, the duel grain should prove to not be prone to hygroscopy as the resin should keep the water out of the benzo.

Edited October 12, 2014 by dagabu

[pyrojig]

The only thing that I could see going wrong , and may not, is during the drying process. I believe that there is a very good reason that most "composite" fuels are done under vacuum due to the grain getting cracks, air bubbles , or voids . This can lead to a cato. Although Im not sure if this will be the case for your mix, I would consider pulling a vacuum on one motor as a test ( if you have the set up)

[smokeytech]

nice price...yeah jim!!

 

http://www.mypixshare.net/files/img/user_uploads/displayimage.php?id=234tgtxio6rk5573046.gif

[dagabu]

The only thing that I could see going wrong , and may not, is during the drying process. I believe that there is a very good reason that most "composite" fuels are done under vacuum due to the grain getting cracks, air bubbles , or voids . This can lead to a cato. Although Im not sure if this will be the case for your mix, I would consider pulling a vacuum on one motor as a test ( if you have the set up)

 

Nope, no vacuum for me. I may have to switch benzo's, this one was suppose to be potassium benzoate but it is still wet like sodium benzoate would be. I will mill up some known K-benzo and double check, the stuff I used was ground and in a ziplock from a friend, they may know the difference.

[WSM]

 

Nope, no vacuum for me. I may have to switch benzo's, this one was suppose to be potassium benzoate but it is still wet like sodium benzoate would be. I will mill up some known K-benzo and double check, the stuff I used was ground and in a ziplock from a friend, they may know the difference.

 

Hey Dag, Do a flame test on a sample of the benzoate. Yellow is sodium and pale lavender is potassium. A clear blue flame and a dark background helps with flame tests.

 

WSM

 

Edit: even if you do get a yellow flame, looking at it through cobalt blue glass will show potassium emissions while masking the sodium emissions, and help determine whether it is all sodium or a sodium/potassium mixture. Good luck.

Edited October 15, 2014 by WSM

[dagabu]

What metal for the wire? Would a normal torch work or should I use the kitchen stove?

[Mumbles]

Platinum ideally If you don't happen to have a spool of that in your junk drawer, Ni-Chrome is generally the second best option. I've even used stainless steel in the past. I generally do a couple tests just to make sure I'm not seeing burn off from the steel though. Dip in water or HCl, dip in the salt, and flame, and repeat a few times.

 

You might be able to do the stove, but a torch would be better. I'm sure you're aware that a torch flame normally has 2 zones. There is the central cone, and the outer flame envelope. I'm probably not getting the names exactly right, but you know what I mean. Try to get the wire on the tip of the cone.

 

http://intranet.tdmu.edu.ua/data/kafedra/internal/pharma_2/classes_stud/en/pharm/prov_pharm/ptn/analytical%20chemistry/2%20course/06%20The%20%D1%81ontrol%20experimental%20problem%20%C2%ABThe%20analysis%20of%20mix%20cations%20%D0%86-V%D0%86%20analytical%20groups%C2%BB.files/image016.gif

[schroedinger]

Mumbles i think your are talking about oxidizing and reducing zone.

 

For sodium even a normal steel rod can be used, just heat it before you test it, also a normal lighter is sufficient. If you have trouble with determining a difference between with chemical and without, just go out at night with a ligher (better a torch) and just put a little probe on a spatula above the foot of the flame (flame should be horizontaly orientated) and slightly tap the spatula. If it is sodium you will be able to tell for sure.

[Mumbles]

Not really. Inner cone and outer envelope seem to be right. Oxidizing and reducing zone are rarely used it seems, and least in English, to prevent confusion with oxidizing and reducing flames. For this, you absolutely don't want any reducing flames present, which would interfere via production of carbon particles. Ideally you want a neutral to slightly oxidizing flame.