Phenolic resin C48>H42>O7

[Algenco]

the phenolic resin most of us have comes in chunks and is dark red, when ground it gets lighter in color

[FlaMtnBkr]

Unfortunately I would say what you have is not Phenolic resin as such more like colophony resin not the same thing your product should look like an off white to cream and air float. Formulation I can give but a bit worried about the sharks around and would I be fed to them!

 

I don't understand? This is a fireworks forum, why would you get in trouble for discussing something related to fireworks that is new to many of us, including formulas for a simple colored star? Letting us know the brand name and company of the product you are having so much luck with just allows us to get the right product the first time instead of having to search through the many different things out there. If we might have the wrong product why not tell us what the right one is? It's not like we are asking you to tell us how to make a high explosive, or flash even. Though those topics are allowed in the HE section. I guess I'm just confused?

[Potassiumchlorate]

If Mia is serious s/he will give us a formula as an example, don't you agree?

[Seymour]

 

 

I am very interested in this. I bought a couple pounds but don't have any idea what type or brand it is. I haven't got to experiment with it yet but I put some in 91% isopropyl alcohol and it has not dissolved much after almost a week. I will have to try water and acetone next. Thanks for any more info you can give us!

 

Your 91% IPA, what is the other 9% I'm pretty unconvinced that the particular phenolic resin sold as resinox is water soluble, though having said that, I've seen two rather different batches both sold under the same name, though both were excellent binders in pure alcohols and ketones (IPA, Ethanol, Methanol, Acetone and MEK I can vouch for). Perhaps 9% water (assuming it's that) dramatically reduces the solubility. Otherwise Mia could be right and you have a resin of different characteristics. How does it burn with KNO3?

[FlaMtnBkr]

I was told Mia doesn't like to share their formulas, which I'm OK with. Some people like to keep formulas a secret. I was just curious since he said his was quite a bit different. But from what I understand their are numerous different formulations that can be considered phenolic resin. The company and name of Mia's supplier is really what I was hoping he would share. I can do my own experiments for formulas.

 

Yes I imagine the other part of my 91% alcohol is water. I would expect that to be enough alcohol to dissolve at least some of a alcohol soluble chemical. Maybe I'm wrong. But it looks like the same thing everyone else has and I'm now told it was made by a company named Hexion. But if Mia has a resin that is water soluble and the Chinese use a water soluble resin, I would imagine there is stuff out there that isn't very alcohol soluble. It is just finding out what it is. I will try putting some of mine in various solvents this afternoon and see if I can find what will dissolve it. We all come here to share and learn and I was just hoping Mia would share his source of resin. Imagine how far along we would all be if no one shared and we didn't have books or forums. I don't think I would even know this hobby exists let alone be able to make anything.

[FlaMtnBkr]

So the resin that we use is resin that has become hard that we then grind into a powder. Does that mean it is excess that a company that uses a lot of the stuff and they added hardener to it and didn't use it all and it got hard? Or does it get hard on its own after time without the hardener? The guy on page 5 that said he worked for a small company that made the stuff said they had a warehouse of the stuff that had gotten hard. Is that what we are getting? Is the virgin resin that is used in industry a liquid? Would resin that had the hardener added to it behave differently than stuff that just got hard with time?

 

I smelled the stuff I have and it has no (or very little) smell. It dissolved in acetone fairly quickly and didn't dissolve in water at all. The 91% isopropyl after over a week has softened a little and a very small amount has dissolved and just barely tinted the alcohol. Don't know if that is because its alcohol, or because it has a small amount of water. We all use acetone that has a small amount of water and it dissolves stuff just fine. I know I'm asking a lot of questions but maybe someone knows the answers as I'm trying to figure out what the Chinese apparently use. I have read and been told that the Chinese use a resin that is water soluble that they roll with. And if they use it, it is most likely a by product and cheap. It also must be different than what we are getting in the US because what we get is not water soluble. I would think everyone would be interested in a cheap substitute for fuels like red gum and shellac that is also a water soluble binder and replaces things like dextrine and SGRS.

[Mia]

Interesting you say I do no not divulge formulas well in fact I do, unfortunately any formulation I give out would not be backed up because you do not have the correct resin, Hexion that is not the manufacturer also Resinox again I reiterate is not what I have @potassium perchlorate how can I give you a formula to work with when you don’t have the resin? The thing I would say is if you leave this resin in the atmosphere for too long then yes it will start to set or bulk up after a week or so air tight containers are a must, good point on the Chinese manufacture yep I can just see them spooning loads of alcohol MEK acetone Methanol very cost affective when water will do if you have the sun that is

[Algenco]

The "chunks" of resin I have has been reacted, and was imported from China that way

[Mia]

That’s an incorrect product bet you had fun getting that air float! colophony resin I would think

[Mumbles]

Colophony resin is a natural product. It also has a pretty distinctive smell that is not at all like what we've been getting. Given the odor of free phenol, I will guarantee that it is synthetic. The stuff that Jim Widmann was selling actually breaks up pretty easily, and powders into an off-white solid. When all phenolic resin is made it is reacted and allowed to cool and solidify. From there it is broken up into clumps and processed as preferred by the customer. Mia, to think that your powdered phenolic resin wasn't large clumps at one point in its processing is just naive. It doesn't just magically fall out of solution as a fine powder.

 

It's been confirmed by several people in the pyrotechnic industry as well as in the adhesives/surface industry that clumps are the most storage stable form. It's however also probably the most inconvenient form too. If you use the product regularly enough, a powder isn't going to stick around long enough to go bad. However, if you're like most hobbyist, the 6 month shelf life of a reactive phenolic resin isn't going to cut it. Before too long you'll be left with rocks or an inferior product depending on how it degrades.

[Algenco]

Mumbles to the rescue!

 

I was fairly certain it was phenol, but since I wasn't absolutely sure I didn't post the info you gave

It's interesting seeing what people are doing with it

[psyco_1322]

What I want to know is why the chunks are orange, but the actual solid rock is clear? As soon as it hits solvent the orange coating just washes away and vanishes into solution, and you are left with a chunk of clear resin. What is this orange stuff?

[Potassiumchlorate]

I have some phenolic resin, that I bought from FREAKYDUTCHMEN pretty long ago, two years or so I think. I milled some 100-150 grams of it, and it's still a fine powder with good adhesion. It's just tricky to use the right amount of alcohol, although that goes for natural resins too.

[Seymour]

What I want to know is why the chunks are orange, but the actual solid rock is clear? As soon as it hits solvent the orange coating just washes away and vanishes into solution, and you are left with a chunk of clear resin. What is this orange stuff?

 

Some reaction with the air me thinks. While freshly powdered resinox of the common lumpy form is off white, given time it darkens and gets more orange. I've not noticed any degradation of performance though.

 

good point on the Chinese manufacture yep I can just see them spooning loads of alcohol MEK acetone Methanol very cost affective when water will do if you have the sun that is

 

I'm not suggesting that there is significant use of it as a binder in China. Red gum/Accroides has been a significant organic fuel in commercial pyro in many locations, but I doubt that it has had a significant role as a binder outside some groups of us in the hobby world. It would of course be used with a cheap water activated binder.

 

The thing I would say is if you leave this resin in the atmosphere for too long then yes it will start to set or bulk up after a week or so air tight containers are a must

 

With such a short shelf life, that must be pretty annoying. Perhaps you should get some more of the Resinox of the type we all have.

 

Interesting you say I do no not divulge formulas well in fact I do, unfortunately any formulation I give out would not be backed up because you do not have the correct resin

 

Perhaps this is so, but I believe many phenolic resins will be interchangeable in compositions with little difference in performance other than burn speed. Also, it seems that you are the one who has the unusual phenolic resin. It seems almost everyone else has Resinox in lump form, which looks, crushes and smells the same. It does strike me a bit like saying "I'd love to share my formulas, but I use SGRS and you all have dextrin, so it won't be the same". True, but a weak argument.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Seymour

[FlaMtnBkr]

Interesting you say I do no not divulge formulas well in fact I do, unfortunately any formulation I give out would not be backed up because you do not have the correct resin, Hexion that is not the manufacturer also Resinox again I reiterate is not what I have @potassium perchlorate how can I give you a formula to work with when you don’t have the resin? The thing I would say is if you leave this resin in the atmosphere for too long then yes it will start to set or bulk up after a week or so air tight containers are a must, good point on the Chinese manufacture yep I can just see them spooning loads of alcohol MEK acetone Methanol very cost affective when water will do if you have the sun that is

 

I wasn't trying to call you out. If you don't want to share formulas and keep them a secret that is fine. I have one or two things I have discovered I haven't shared yet. But don't say that's not what you are doing, because you haven't shared the first bit of information. Just read all your posts in this thread if you don't believe me. All I really want to know is what type or brand or company makes your resin but you have gone out of your way to tell us it is different than what we have and that's it. I guess you have been taking notes from the Maltese.

 

But I was able to talk with a chemist at a phenolic company yesterday and he told me there is no phenolic that is water soluble. So either you have something else, or you add enough acetone to your water to dissolve it. Also, from what you said, you have a resole type of phenolic resin. Just about everything in the US is a novolac phenolic that has been reacted with hexamine fully, or almost fully as in the case of what Jim Widdman brought in from China. That is why his still has a phenol smell and mine doesn't because it has been fully reacted.

 

If anyone has some questions about phenolic resin let me know as I took lots of notes and think I have a pretty good grasp of the different types and some of their properties. There are a ton of different resins that may have slightly different properties but they mainly fall into 3 groups.

Edited January 26, 2013 by FlaMtnBkr

[Mia]

Colophony resin is a natural product. It also has a pretty distinctive smell that is not at all like what we've been getting. Given the odor of free phenol, I will guarantee that it is synthetic. The stuff that Jim Widmann was selling actually breaks up pretty easily, and powders into an off-white solid. When all phenolic resin is made it is reacted and allowed to cool and solidify. From there it is broken up into clumps and processed as preferred by the customer. Mia, to think that your powdered phenolic resin wasn't large clumps at one point in its processing is just naive. It doesn't just magically fall out of solution as a fine powder.

 

It's been confirmed by several people in the pyrotechnic industry as well as in the adhesives/surface industry that clumps are the most storage stable form. It's however also probably the most inconvenient form too. If you use the product regularly enough, a powder isn't going to stick around long enough to go bad. However, if you're like most hobbyist, the 6 month shelf life of a reactive phenolic resin isn't going to cut it. Before too long you'll be left with rocks or an inferior product depending on how it degrades.

I am not being naive to think it may have well been chunks all I am saying my finished product is air float also there no odour to it in any way, note the product I have will degrade if left exposed to UV and air .

[Mia]

I wasn't trying to call you out. If you don't want to share formulas and keep them a secret that is fine. I have one or two things I have discovered I haven't shared yet. But don't say that's not what you are doing, because you haven't shared the first bit of information. Just read all your posts in this thread if you don't believe me. All I really want to know is what type or brand or company makes your resin but you have gone out of your way to tell us it is different than what we have and that's it. I guess you have been taking notes from the Maltese.

 

But I was able to talk with a chemist at a phenolic company yesterday and he told me there is no phenolic that is water soluble. So either you have something else, or you add enough acetone to your water to dissolve it. Also, from what you said, you have a resole type of phenolic resin. Just about everything in the US is a novolac phenolic that has been reacted with hexamine fully, or almost fully as in the case of what Jim Widdman brought in from China. That is why his still has a phenol smell and mine doesn't because it has been fully reacted.

 

If anyone has some questions about phenolic resin let me know as I took lots of notes and think I have a pretty good grasp of the different types and some of their properties. There are a ton of different resins that may have slightly different properties but they mainly fall into 3 groups.

This may be of interest to you Phenolic bound star barium nitrate based green.

Barium nitrate 38.5

Potassium perchlorate 11

PVC 8

MG/AL 300# 13

Phenolic resin 6

Don’t add up to a 100 but you can do the maths

The star was bound using 70% acetone with water at 30% the star was dried at 70f for three hours then left to air dry fully for 24hrs I then placed the star in a water bath for 24hrs after this the star was still intact leaving only a small amount of redundant MG/AL I removed the star and placed on some kitchen towel for around 3 minutes then tested the star for ignition perfect! Try that that with dextrin or SGRS

[pyrojig]

That sounds like an amazing binder! I just purchased some myself and cant wait to see how well it binds. By chance is the resin you speak of (Mia) "Iditol"? I know that it seems pretty popular in Chinese manufacture for resin bound stars v.s. other formaldehyde/resin bound stars.

[Jonathan]

Received 10 lbs. phenolic resin via Ebay. Chunks and powder. Reduced about a cup to powder (light pink-orange). Insoluble in water. Somewhat soluble in isopropyl alcohol.

 

Today mixed 1g of the powder with 7.1g NH4ClO4 and a pinch of CuO. A 1/4 tsp. of the mix produced a beautiful, bright, clean, energetic, non-flash burn. The 7.1:1 ratio is stoichiometric.

[hindsight]

Jonathan, believe I have the same phenolic resin coming to me from the Durez Corporation via Ebay, as that is the only phenolic resin that meets your description of an Ebay product. I'm trying to reach the seller to identify the resin. If you know the stoichiometry, I assume you have the compound's identity. I'm interested in a nonaqueous solvent except MEK for this particular resin and would like any star comp using this resin without AP, Chlorate nor Barium. It'll be trial and error using the above vast (pages 1-6) and confusing info unless someone can guide me. Info from Ebay supplier below if this provides any clues:

a non-heat reactive, alkyl-substituted, solid phenolic resin supplied in flake form.

 

• Tackifier for chlorobutyl rubber in white sidewall and tire inner liner compounds.

• Tackifier for SBR, butyl and other synthetic rubbers.

• Recommended for the production of high grade oleo resinous varnishes.

• Can be used directly, or for blending with alkyd resins.

• Varnishes formulated utilizing this resin may be used as vehicles in pigmented enamels.

• Not recommended for white or very light colored enamels.

• Contains no modifying agents and is suitable for use with any of the typical drying oils used in varnish formulations

• Good gas proofing characteristics.

• Varnishes exhibit excellent drying characteristics and dried films have exceptional resistance to alkalies and water.

• For optimum control, varnish cooks of the dispersion type are recommended.

 

Edited October 5, 2013 by hindsight

[Jonathan]

Hindsight,

 

From what I glean here and elsewhere on the internet, the formula for the stuff I have, which I believe without doubt to be phenolic resin, is C42H48O7, yielding a molecular weight of 730.857.

 

I've got some 200 proof pure (non-denatured) ethanol, which I understand dissolves phenolic resin. I'll give the ethanol a try and let you know.

 

You should check with Seymour re best oxidants, given your constraints. Seymour has a lot of experience with phenolic resin.

[hindsight]

Okay, this is reaching back forty years, but with reading all the foregoing 6 pages of discussion about phenolic resins, it's clear there would be differences in molecular weight and solubility between the acid catalyzed, hexamine-cured (Novolac) resins and the alkaline-catalyzed, more oligomeric (Resol/e) type. Googling Novolac solubilities, the solvent mentioned that we are most familiar with is acetone (absolute ethanol should work). Resol/e resins it appears are somewhat water soluble (and presumably soluble in less polar solvents also). In using ethanol for resin binder, it occurs to me that using ethanol as solvent with a KClO4-oxidizer-containing comp could be a problem? That young fellow Oldguy and the Wunderkind Mumbles will surely keep me on track here.

The supplier of my resin has not been able to provide any info on the identity of the resin. But the price was right, so I'll see what it does when it gets here.

Some uses for phenolic resin in composite propellants are on this thread: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/389-composite-propellants/page-4?do=findComment&comment=117487

Edited October 7, 2013 by hindsight

[Jonathan]

Hindsight,

 

Pure, 200 proof ethanol dissolves my hexamine-cured phenolic resin like a champ.

[hindsight]

Hindsight,

 

Pure, 200 proof ethanol dissolves my hexamine-cured phenolic resin like a champ.

Great. Now my question remains whether 200 proof ethanol can be used with the oxidizer KClO4 (not referring to solubility). Jonathan, just out of curiosity, you know it's hexamine-cured because of what? Smell? Has your supplier (thought we had same source) identified the type of phenolic resin? Thanks.

Edited October 7, 2013 by hindsight

[Mumbles]

Do you mean as a fuel, or is it compatible with potassium perchlorate. The answer to the second part is yes, it is stable to mix the two of them.