kleberrios Posted December 7, 2011 Posted December 7, 2011 Have you tried to coat the Fe powder with a Gilsonite solution, then let it dry to prevent rust? It forms a black very durable hard paint like coating on iron & steel. A gilsonite type of paint was used years back on cars/trucks as an undercoating to protect exposed iron/steel parts from rusting. Gilsonite is a glossy, black, solid hydrocarbon resin similar in appearance to coal or hard asphalt. It is brittle and lightweight and can be easily crushed into powder. Its unique chemical properties identify it as belonging to its own sub-group of the asphaltite family. Gilsonite occurs naturally in a very pure state, and softens in a range of temperatures according to grade, from 300 to 400 degrees Fahrenheit (150-205 degrees Celsius). It has low specific gravity, high nitrogen content and very lower sulfur content. It is non-carcinogenic and safe to handle in its natural state. http://www.americang...m/eng/about-us/ Thanks oldgui, I"try. Here gilsonite is know" Betume of Judéia". It dissolves in alcool.
oldguy Posted December 7, 2011 Author Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) The "Gilsonite" I have from Utah (USA) (also sometimes called uintaite or asphaltum) . Is not soluble in alcohol. So, the product must differ somehow? HISTORY > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilsonite SOLUBILITY > http://zieglerchemical.com/solubil.htm http://www.gilsonite-bitumen.com/gilsonite_files/PDF/general%20info/Gilsonite_General_solubility.pdf http://atdmco.com/WHAT%20IS%20GILSONITE.pdf Elemental Analysis: Weight % Carbon 84.9 Hydrogen 10 Nitrogen 3.3 Sulfur 0.3 Oxygen 1.4 Trace elements 0.1 Edited December 7, 2011 by oldguy
oldguy Posted April 1, 2012 Author Posted April 1, 2012 Red Sr 65, Mg 13, PVC 15, Phenolic resin 7 Green Ba 66, Mg 12, PVC 15, Phenolic resin 7
Potassiumchlorate Posted April 2, 2012 Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) And it will "seal off" the Mg enough? I have 1kg that I bought from our Dutch friends a year ago or two. It comes as chunks, but I have milled 200g or so. For green I will hold on to barium chlorate anyway, but the red composition seems interesting. Edited April 2, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate
oldguy Posted April 2, 2012 Author Posted April 2, 2012 (edited) http://www.revistadechimie.ro/pdf/NACU%20S.pdf%202%2011.pdf http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/prep.19940190304/abstract If you don’t trust Mg in the comp? I would suggest water quenched Mg/Al PS, Barium nitrate, not barium chlorate Mg reaction to vinegar below: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6326-water-quenching-diy-mgal/page__p__81247__fromsearch__1#entry81247 Edited April 4, 2012 by oldguy
Loki Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Hey everybody, I hope this thread hasn't died. I'm a lab technician/research chemist at a phenolic resin plant. We primarily make things like concrete overlays, ballistics material, and counter tops/siding.However it's a small company that's open to new ideas, and I'm not sure anyone ever thought about selling some of our excess resin. One of our bigger problems is that we have a warehouse full of resins that have cured (hardened) and we can't use them to saturate our products. So I'm going to talk to the owner about the possibility of selling some of that resin for pyrotechnic purposes. Maybe I can talk him into paying me to test it I'll keep you updated on that. If anyone has questions about phenolic resins I would be happy to answer to the best of my knowledge. -Loki
dagabu Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Fantastic! I know I would be interested in #10 or more. -dag
BJV Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Fantastic! I know I would be interested in #10 or more. -dag +1BJV
Loki Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Alright well my boss seemed open to the idea, but I'm going to need a little information about what kind of resin is best for pyrotechnics.We primarily make resole not novolak, is that going to be a problem? How much do you usually pay for the resin? I saw $1.2-3.5/kg but am not sure if that's accurate. And what quantity do you usually use? I'll need to know for packaging purposes. Are there any specific qualities the resin should have? Thanks for your interest! -Loki
AdmiralDonSnider Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 I just translated parts of the spanish script available in the files section just to find my interest in phenolic resin rise again. The author investigated chinese colored stars and cake comps and his most relevant findings are: - in China phenolic resin substitutes red gum as a fuel- when this material is used the stars catch fire much more easily- they use a type of phenolic resin that is water soluble (thus it can sub dextrin as a binder), alcohol soluble and acetone soluble. It makes very hard stars- its smell is the characteristic bakelite smell- the family of material is the Novolac type, but there are so many specific products. it is hard to find the right one. The exact kind is a well-kept secret. Some of these points have been already noted by others in this thread. This caught my attention especially because I´m into cakes as typical chinese items. The paper showing chinese cake formulas (also available in the files section) lists Resinox as a component in every colored star mix. - has anyone had success in finding what specific material is used by the chinese?- do permanent sources exist?- has anybody worked with water soluble phenolic resin?
FREAKYDUTCHMEN Posted January 20, 2013 Posted January 20, 2013 It isn't water soluble, but you can roll it with water, but then you'll need another binder and the resin only acts as a fuel.
WSM Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) It isn't water soluble, but you can roll it with water, but then you'll need another binder and the resin only acts as a fuel. This correlates with compositions with both red gum and dextrin in them; where the red gum is used as a fuel and dextrin is the (water soluble) binder. WSM Edited January 21, 2013 by WSM
AdmiralDonSnider Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 Wondered about this too: "hay resinas fenólicas que son solubles en agua, esto hace que se pueda eliminar de las formulas de color la dextrina"
Mia Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 Interesting thread this as I do have phenolic resin brand name Resinox to name a few! It is water soluble and you do not need any other binder! So red gum and Dextrin can be dropped typical drying time at room temperature is around 3hrs, another interesting thing is you can light a star with no prime visco works well or just a simple BP prime as a guarantee, colour of the stars is also improved no end, another interesting thing is if you roll a crackle mix with phenolic and then roll a colour around that you get a very nice effect, I think the Admiral has got his information right.Is it available? Well I picked up 25killos without a problem as long as you know your brand names, hope this helps.
Mumbles Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 http://www.plenco.com/phenolic-novolac-resol-resins.htm That website has been one of the ones I read regularly for information on phenolic resins. It states that while novolac resins are typically only soluble in alcohol and ketones that resol type resins do generally have some solubility in water. I honestly am not positive which type is used, but I was under the impression that novolac type resins were more common. The phenolic resin I have certainly has an odor of free phenol, which I would think would only be possible with this type. Could it be possible that the "water soluble" resin is actually one of the 2 part novolac resins? Some contain hexamine to act as a cross linking agent. Hexamine is water soluble. Perhaps just the action of hexamine dissolving and starting the final curing process is enough to make things stick together? This might be able to explain the 3hr drying times that Mia just mentioned. This seems quite short to me. I'm sure Mia knows much better what they're getting, so perhaps he may be able to provide a little clarification. Phenolic resins are just now getting onto the pyro market in the US, so those of you from Europe definitely have a head start and more experience with this stuff.
Mia Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 (edited) Hi Mumbles no the phenolic resin as used by the Chinese is not a two part mix, it is soluble in water alone although I have found the addition of acetone at 25% improves the chlorine donor and helps to homogenise the mix, drying time well it can be at under 50F 24hrs but if you use a drying cabinet at 70F then yep 3hrs, I would be more than happy to ship some to you free of charge your input would be appreciated moreover I will provide formulations for the binary colours to play with , most formulas call for red gum/Dextrin you don’t need it so they may look a little weird but trust me! Edited January 21, 2013 by Mia
Mia Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 Phenolic resin C48>H42>O7 Resinox & Novolac thermoplastic resins formed by reaction of phenol with formaldehyde in a ratio greater than 1:1 under acid conditions. Such resins are sometimes used as pyrotechnic fuels.Example: Chinese red star….Potassium perchlorate 40Strontium carbonate 25,MgAl 20Phenolic resin 10PVC 5. It appears PBAN binder used in space shuttle fuel is something like this. Looking for a USA source (small amount), any hints, help or direction would be appreciated.I googled this to death & only came up with industrial amounts.Phenolic is way to high more like 3% but the whole thing looks a crock
AdmiralDonSnider Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 You mean just 3% phenolic resin and no red gum in the formula? Wouldn´t this make a star way too low in fuel?
Mia Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 You are joking 3% is all you need sort of upset a lot of formulations I would think! red gum dextrin what 10% in total you don’t need it, stop living in history books move on if you want proof of the formulations and star tests then PM me
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 Could you give us a sample formula for say, a red or green star? Could you also give us the brand name and the company that makes it? If it is water soluble is it also soluble in pure acetone? What about pure alcohol? What price did you pay when buying 25 kg? I am very interested in this. I bought a couple pounds but don't have any idea what type or brand it is. I haven't got to experiment with it yet but I put some in 91% isopropyl alcohol and it has not dissolved much after almost a week. I will have to try water and acetone next. Thanks for any more info you can give us!
Seymour Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 From my experience resinox in an excellent fuel with nearly everything, and a good binder with alcohols and ketones. I had assumed that it was not able to be water activated, and can't say I've tried using it alone as a binder and water as the solvent, however a batch of stars with it and average dextrin were averagely strong, in a few places a little softer than desired, so I'm not sure that I was having much resinox activation. Ammonium perchlorate green rocket 50% Ammonium perchlorate30% Barium nitrate14% Resinox5% MgAl (or Mg )1% Potassium dichromate Resinox green star 58% Ba(NO3)216% Parlon14% MgAl4% Sulfur4% Resinox4% Dextrin (omit if using Resinox as a binder) Ammonium perchlorate Purple rocket 54% AP25% SrN16% Resinox4% MgAl1% CuO
Mia Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 I have found alcohol to be less effective in fact border line useless acetone /water mix works well the phenolic I have is branded phenolic resin not Resinox that’s a brand name although I have used it before but much prefer the phenolic I have now, it will dissolve in water but over wetting will cause problems acetone/water mix is what you need Regards
FlaMtnBkr Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 Mia, You seem to have a lot of experience with the phenolic resin. Do you think you could answer some of these questions below? I would really like to know what company made the product you have and a brand name. Thanks for any help as we are just starting to learn about phenolic resin in the US, at least me and the fireworkers I know. Could you give us a sample formula for say, a red or green star? Could you also give us the brand name and the company that makes it? If it is water soluble is it also soluble in pure acetone? What about pure alcohol? What price did you pay when buying 25 kg? I am very interested in this. I bought a couple pounds but don't have any idea what type or brand it is. I haven't got to experiment with it yet but I put some in 91% isopropyl alcohol and it has not dissolved much after almost a week. I will have to try water and acetone next. Thanks for any more info you can give us!
Mia Posted January 23, 2013 Posted January 23, 2013 Unfortunately I would say what you have is not Phenolic resin as such more like colophony resin not the same thing your product should look like an off white to cream and air float. Formulation I can give but a bit worried about the sharks around and would I be fed to them!
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