oldguy Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Phenolic resin C48>H42>O7Resinox & Novolac thermoplastic resins formed by reaction of phenol with formaldehyde in a ratio greater than 1:1 under acid conditions. Such resins are sometimes used as pyrotechnic fuels. Example: Chinese red star…. Potassium perchlorate 40 Strontium carbonate 25, MgAl 20 Phenolic resin 10 PVC 5. It appears PBAN binder used in space shuttle fuel is something like this. Looking for a USA source (small amount), any hints, help or direction would be appreciated.I googled this to death & only came up with industrial amounts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I was looking up some patents and literature on this matter. The stuff I had found typically used about 2.2:1 aqueous formaldehyde:phenol, and did it in alkaline solution. It sounded a lot like making soap to me. You mix your ingredients with a base and heat it until it gets thick like honey, pour it out and let it cool and hopefully solidify. I believe there is some getting ready to be put on the market in the US. There is some testing being done among members on passfire, with the hopes of bringing some in for sale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 (edited) My understanding is aqueous formaldehyde is added to solid phenol. Next glacial acetic acid is added and the mixture is stirred. Concentrated hydrochloric acid is then mixed with the resulting solution. After a few minutes, the solution becomes cloudy and the red solid phenol-formaldehyde copolymer forms. The polymerization occurs by electrophilic aromatic substitution between the ortho and para positions of phenol and protonated formaldehyde. The resulting polymer is made by methylene bridges between phenol molecules. Hexamine is also part of the mix. Edit to add: I also have unconfirmed info that the better phenolic resin used in China pyro factories is somehow nitrated to some extent. Edited July 23, 2011 by oldguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Is it a red gum replacement? (sorry if off-topic) What are its advantages (reasons for use)? It is available in Europe, sold by pyro suppliers as chunks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 Some type phenolic resin is used extensively by almost all major Chinese fireworks manufacturers, as a binder and fairly hot accessory fuel. The Chinese basically started the fireworks industry well over a thousand years ago. So, they know the craft as well, if not better than anyone else. They are also as tight with a dollar as scrooge himself. So, if they are using it, it must have the best attributes for the purpose they put it to for the lowest possible price. Apparently, using alcohol as a solvent, it a compatible binder/fuel with ammonium perchlorate, in combination with magnesium and Mg/Al. I have unconfirmed information that if various comp’s are carefully formulated with it, they can be near smokeless also. It’s not in common use & almost unheard of here in the USA. So, it just peaked my curiosity. The trouble is, which kind & type do they use. Since there are a wide range of phenolic resins on the market. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Thanks for the insight, Oldguy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 24, 2011 Author Share Posted July 24, 2011 (edited) Propellants, Explosives, Pyrotechnics International Peer-reviewed Journal on energetic materials. International Pyrotechnics Society. Volume 9, Issue 3, pages 127 - 132 June 1994 The Influence of the Various Types of Binder on the burning characteristics of the magnesium-, boron-, and aluminum-based igniters AbstractThe behavior of six different types of binders phenol-formaldehyde resin, shellac, polyvinylchloride, ethylcellulose, nitrocellulose, and fluorel was investigated in pyrotechnic compositions on the basis of magnesium, boron and aluminum. It has been found that the nature of the binder significantly influences the burning characteristics of the igniters. Correlation has been found between binder exothermicity and investigated characteristics. In addition, the influence of the contents of phenol-formaldehyde resin and of fluorel, in the range of 0% to 25% on the same performance characteristics was studied. Phenol-formaldehyde resin has been chosen as preferred binder for the investigated igniters in an amount of 5%. See also:http://www.revistadechimie.ro/pdf/NACU%20S.pdf%202%2011.pdf Edited July 24, 2011 by oldguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Interesting history. http://www.bakelite-labteam.com/download/free/information_that_you_need_about_bakelite.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 Digging deeper....... hexamine 5 to 10% is the curing agent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSM Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Digging deeper....... hexamine 5 to 10% is the curing agent. If I remember correctly, hexamine breaks down into formaldehyde when it's heated or otherwise reacted. WSM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 http://khrd.en.alibaba.com/product/466851608-212582313/Phenolic_Resin.html Minimum order 2 metric tons FOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 25, 2011 Share Posted July 25, 2011 Ill go in halfs -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 25, 2011 Author Share Posted July 25, 2011 LOL......................ya sure thing 500 grams here + shippinghttp://www.pyro-stuff.com/phenolic-resin.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Can it be used in chlorate comps? (I really hope so ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petroleum Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Can it be used in chlorate comps? (I really hope so ) Yes, it can be used in chlorate stars. In my conditions phenolic resin give more stronger stars compared to my RedGum (supplier: Kremer Pigmente (Germany) using EtOH as solvent. Burn rates of my comps are fatser with phenolic resin compared with Reg Gum and furthermore with shellac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 That really isn't surprising considering that red gum isn't really designed to be used as a binder. It's primarily a fuel. I've used it as a binder before, but more as a granulation binder. I'd be more interested to know how the phenolic stacks up against dextrin or some other actual binders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 28, 2011 Author Share Posted July 28, 2011 (edited) I have some novolac type ( without fillers) on order & waiting with curious anticipation for it to arrive. My understanding is it is better than shellac & NC lacquer. Also works well as a protective coating over reactive metals. Edited July 28, 2011 by oldguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petroleum Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 That really isn't surprising considering that red gum isn't really designed to be used as a binder. It's primarily a fuel. I've used it as a binder before, but more as a granulation binder. I'd be more interested to know how the phenolic stacks up against dextrin or some other actual binders.I think it depends on the comp where binder will be used. In my conditions water soluble binders work well in metal-free star comps or in comps with small percentage of metalic fuel (like glitter comps). In charcoal mixes like C8 dextrine works better (stars are more stronger) than organic soluble binders (furthermore my C8 comp didnt realy work with organic soluble binders like RedGum or phenolic resin). On the other hand metallic fueled colored stars (KClO4-Magnalium type) are stronger using phenolic resin compared with dextrine (also all we know that using of water in such type of comps are undesirable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Jim over at Passfire got a bunch in and is bringing it to PGI. $5.00 a pound for 10#. Anyone wanting some should pm me ASAP and I will pick up whatever you guys order and will sell it to you all for Jims price but in one pound lots plus shipping and a buck for handling if you dont want the ten pound box. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Whoot Whoot........... Jim from passfire phenolic resin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Very nice oldguy! Do you have any potassium chlorate? Do you do organic comps? Would you like experimenting with some formulas. If the chemical formula written in the thread is true, then the oxygen balance for phenolic resin is 0.415 grams per gram oxygen, it means a slighly higher fuel value than shellac (0.43:1and much more than the one of red gum (0.5) So I quickly designed formulas for red and green: Pot chlorate: 68Sr carbonate 18Phen. resin: 5Shel-lac: 4Dextrin: 5 Faster and hotter (phen resin only) Pot chlorate: 69Sr carbonate 18Phen. resin: 9Dextrin: 5 Cheap green barium nitrate 48 pot chlorate33 ba nitrate6 PVC3 phen resin3 shellac5 dextrin Phen resin only 48 pot chlorate34 ba nitrate6 PVC6 phen resin5 dextrin If you are wishing to try and there are chemicals in the formulas that you don't have with you, let me know to let me modify the comps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 Pot Perch 73, Phenolic resin 27 makes a strong propellant........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Then add more shellac and some PVC to the mix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 (edited) Just tinkering, to see how it reacts with various fuels, oxidizers & reactive metals. Pot Perch, Phenolic resin & Mg/Al is BRIGHT white Edited July 31, 2011 by oldguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldguy Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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