Left Field Question

[RobPrideaux]

Hi there.

 

 

I am a pro photographer seeking expert help with an art project in exchange for photography services.

 

I am a California commercial photographer, looking to expand my work with fire. in 2009, I produced an award-winning series of images, and I'd like to build on that success, using colors and shaping.

 

http://www.robprideaux.com/temp/fireheart.jpg

©2009 Rob Prideaux

 

That original series was shot with small gasoline fireballs (about 3' in diameter). I've found that gasoline is pretty limited, however. I'm interested in exploring colored explosions, smoke, sparks, and also in shaping flames and explosions, including fire tornados.

 

I have read up on this and other forums, and have gradually realized that what you guys do is way beyond my capability. For example, I believe that fuels can be mixed with other chemicals to create colored flames, but I can't tell if those fuels have to be under pressure to create explosions, and more importantly, I have no idea what chemicals to use or how to mix them, nor do I have the proper tools or materials.

 

So, what am I looking for? Ideally, someone to work closely with me on the next phase of this project, someone who can build the necessary materials and tools, including safety tools, and be on set to supervise the operations. Failing that, someone to design and test mixtures that will produce the kinds of effects that I'm after, and supervise (over the phone) my replication and use of the recipes.

 

So, what's in it for you? This is a self-promotion project, so I don't have much budget. However, I can offer you high quality, framed fine art prints of the results. Or I could photograph one or more of your fireworks displays, or even give you photography lessons so you could take really good pictures yourself.

 

If you're experienced enough, have a healthy respect for safety, and are interested in helping out with a groundbreaking art project, please let me know at rob@robprideaux.com.

 

Thanks,

 

Rob Prideaux

www.robprideaux.com

[anapogeetoofar]

I know alcohols, methanol in particular can be colored.

 

Boric acid and copper chloride make nice greens.

Calcium chloride makes an orange color.

Lithium chloride or strontium chloride makes a red.

Sodium chloride makes yellow.

Potassium sulfate or chloride might make a violet color.

 

Just mix small amounts in methanol or denatured ethanol until no more dissolves and away you go.

How do you intend to create the flames? Explosively or with a nozzle type deal?

[RobPrideaux]

anapogeetoofar, thanks for that. I have made some colored flames as you suggest, but the isopropyl alcohol flame is quite dim - ok for photographing against black, but not against white, as the flame just disappears. Further, I couldn't get it to ignite as a spray, only in pools or on a wick. It's awesome for making trails and flame walls though!

 

In the past, I've made the fireballs by spraying gasoline from spray bottles. Moving forward, it doesn't matter how the fireball is created, so long as the light output is high, and the flames are dense.

 

I know alcohols, methanol in particular can be colored.

...

How do you intend to create the flames? Explosively or with a nozzle type deal?

[PersonGuyDude]

Sounds like you are interested in making "ghost mine" type devices.

This may help Link1

Here is what they look like.

The ones in that video with alot of smoke are "gas mines", same thing as ghost mines, just using pure gasoline.

They are called ghost mines for a reason. Even though the color is magnificent and bright, the fireball is almost see-through. Weird.

Basically they are baggies of methanol(and your coloring agent) above black powder lifting charge, typically in large metal tubes.

Hope this helps.

 

Forgot to mention that they can, of course, be scaled down for your purpose. I was ~50ft away from gas mines like those, and they get damn close to singing your eyebrows.

 

Not sure what size of fireball you are looking for, but HDPE tubes say 1-3"s, may provide a useful fireball. You can get methanol at the auto parts store as HEET gas-line antifreeze, make sure to purchase the yellow bottle.

Boric acid can be bought at hardware stores as a pesticide.

Sodium chloride is salt.

The rest of the colors can probably be bought at ebay.

I've had success with copper sulfate and salt thrown in a bonfire to make nice blue/green/red flames.

Copper sulfate can be bought at the hardware store as a herbicide for drain pipes.

 

I'd love to see your work after this project, great stuff.

 

Edited July 12, 2011 by PersonGuyDude

[dagabu]

There are a couple guys here with a vast amount of experience in special effects from Cali. Hang in there and they will throw their $.02 in to the hat as well.

 

-dag

[optimus]

Moving forward, it doesn't matter how the fireball is created, so long as the light output is high, and the flames are dense.

 

Unfortunately you will struggle to replicate this kind of dense fireball in different colours. Methanol makes great colours but the flames themselves are relatively transparent/dim. You could look into some theatrical nitrocellulose-based flame projectors. I've never seen the coloured liquid-fuelled SFX projectors so can't comment, again possibly worth looking into.

 

I've done a fair bit of this kind of thing:

 

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3183/2860431023_802a70225c.jpg

 

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/186/471319284_7c75c7d1b0.jpg

 

So let me know if you have any more questions about a particular effect you're looking for.

Edited July 12, 2011 by optimus

[RobPrideaux]

Thanks guys.

 

So, I share optimus' fear that the alcohol flame will be too thin for my final purposes, but I'm going to give it a try on black, because it looks really cool.

 

PersonGuyDude, do I need a lift charge, or can I just ignite a reservoir of methanol in a mortar? Could I use compressed air instead of black powder?

 

optimus, that white cloud shot is killer. What is that? Is that smoke or vapor? How big is that and could it be made smaller?

 

Looking only briefly into nitrocellulose, it seems pretty unstable, but I guess that was then. I will look into it more.

 

Thanks again, everybody, I'm getting some useful pointers.

 

Finally, does anybody have any pointers on dry/powder/solid fuels that will create a fireball? I'm not stuck on liquid fuels...and I think, but I'm not certain, that it's more possible to mix colorants with such fuels. How else are colored stars and aerial explosions made?

[NightHawkInLight]

This is going to be a tough project for you if you leave the realm of liquid fuels.

 

First let me answer your question about lifting methanol with air. That should work just fine. Obviously you will need an external ignition source such as a road flare or a torch, but you shouldn't have trouble there.

 

Now the issue of powdered fuels is different. Yes, powdered chemicals are used to create the colors in fireworks, but they are formed into solid chunks and bound with various glues to cement the compositions together. If you were to fire just the powdered composition that these chunks are made out of from an air cannon it would burn with one bright flash, not a rolling fireball like you get with liquid fuels.

 

Your real problem with using homemade fireworks compositions for your photography is that you would be breaking federal law if you were to make those compositions and then use them for any sort of commercial purpose without having an explosives manufacturers license. Taking pictures of such things and then selling them, or even promoting yourself with them would be a violation. I had a long discussion with the head of the ATF explosives branch less than a month ago about exactly that subject.

 

Really what I'm trying to say is that if your primary interest is not making fireworks, it is not worth it to figure out how to make them yourself for a short term commercial project. If you really want to use solid fuels your best bet is to go to a fireworks club shoot somewhere near your area and ask around for a licensed fireworks manufacturer who is willing to help you. Unfortunately you're in California so there's not likely to be anyone right down the road, but there are organizations in many bordering states. Or maybe you can find a special effects place around.

 

The least trouble of course would be to simply stick to liquid fuels, no nitrocellulose or oxidized firework compositions unless they are unmodified consumer fireworks.

[50AE]

Mixing methylene chloride with the methanol adds chlorine, which helps achieving some colors.

 

A mix of methylene chloride + methanol with CuSO4 gives a very nice blue

 

Drawbacks - smell of chlorine.

[Mumbles]

It also makes phosgene when burning.

 

I'm curious how you get CuSO4 to dissolve in methanol or DCM. In my experience it's quite insoluble. In fact that can be exploited to make certain copper salts.

[RobPrideaux]

NightHawkInLight, I figured that was pretty much the case, and I don't want to run afoul of the law, or more importantly, injure myself (c.f. phosgene, gah). Also, I figured CA would be pretty thin on pyrotechnicians outside of Hollywood. There's a guy near me, but my project is real small compared to a film, so I worry he might not be interested. I've got a message in to him anyway.

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

 

But! Do you know of any liquid fuels that would produce a denser flame, and can dissolve the common colorants? Or, any colorants that will dissolve in petrochemical fuels? I tried various salts in gasoline and they just sink to the bottom.

 

I'm going to mess around with Methanol on Thu/Fri, hopefully I'll have some interesting pictures to share...

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Rob

[optimus]

optimus, that white cloud shot is killer. What is that? Is that smoke or vapor? How big is that and could it be made smaller?

 

That's simply a few grams of gunpowder with Titanium powder added for sparkles. The cloud is probably about 1' wide.

[NightHawkInLight]

It would be very difficult to find a fuel that would take a colorant yet give a brighter and more color saturated flame than methanol. Methanol is used because it burns with very little color itself, otherwise the natural color would override any added colorants. An unfortunate side effect is that it burns with little light output as well.

 

I hate to suggest it as I'm not sure if it will be offensive to your style of photography, but have you considered simply editing the hue of the dense orange from a gasoline fireball to whatever color you desire?

 

Edit:

Something like this

Edited July 14, 2011 by NightHawkInLight

[r1dermon]

Have you tried whitegas yet? Not sure how well it'll take color, but it burns DAMN bright.

[RobPrideaux]

NightHawkInLight, I appreciate the idea, and I'm not offended, but I want to do simultaneous, different colored fireballs slamming into each other. The hope is that there will be something cool that happens at that moment. I do also want to photograph something that actually happened; if I let go of that, I could just do it in CGI.

 

But I'm hardheaded in my attachment to using actual fire.

 

That purple heart looks pretty cool though!

 

r1demon, white gas is hydrocarbons, so I assumed that I'd have the same colorant limitations as gasoline (i.e. none). Let me know if you know otherwise.

 

Thanks guys.

[optimus]

r1demon, white gas is hydrocarbons, so I assumed that I'd have the same colorant limitations as gasoline (i.e. none). Let me know if you know otherwise.

 

That would be correct, you're not going to get any colours that way.

[optimus]

Anyone know what chemicals these aerosol DMX-controlled things use?

 

The fireballs look different to methanol but it's hard to tell from the video.

 

 

Only downside of using these would be price, I'm assuming they're quite pricey.

[NightHawkInLight]

They're pretty bright but it looks to me like they could still easily be methyl or ethyl alcohol. Another possibility is they could use a flammable gas that picks up some coloring agents as they are released. The latter seems like it would be a huge pain to replicate and reset for multiple shots in homemade equipment. Very cool devices in any case, I've never seen those before.

 

I would stick to experimenting with colored alcohols, and only if after exhausting all the options in that area move on to other fuels if it's still not giving the desired effect.

[Mumbles]

Those look to be a gas to me, but it very well could be pressurized alcohol. You can see a flowing orange/red flame at the end of some of the shots after the color runs out. At the same time, there is typically some residual flame in the firing apparatus after the shot. As for how to do it, you've got me.

 

My best guess is if it is actually primarily a gas, that an alcoholic liquid colorant solution is being injected. There is actually a nice venturi type process that would make a primitive version of that easily possible. I messed around with it in high school once. I don't remember if we were running the hose/pipe into the air intake of the bunsen burner, or into the flame directly.

 

It may also just be an aerosol alcohol solution. Pressurizing the alcohol and forcing it through a relatively fine SS screen should do the trick.

[dagabu]

Fuel injector shooting thru a shaped venturi? No residue to burn off that way.

 

-dag

[Mumbles]

New idea. When I was into building plastic models of cars, I had an airbrush setup, that seemingly used relatively little paint. I bet you could fill the paint reservoir with your colored alcohol solution and use that. I seem to recall that the propellant was butane. Even if it's just compressed air, it may be able to work via aerosolized alcohol. This would be more of a test or proof of concept. A commercially useful version would require metal parts, and probably use natural gas or at least propane as the fuel (if air doesn't work).

[NightHawkInLight]

Something to keep in mind is that there is a danger inherent in igniting liquid fuels at close proximity. That danger would be enhanced by the addition of pressurized air, which may provide enough oxygen to allow the flame to travel back into the fuel reservoir and burst it. Perhaps not probable, but possible. A handheld spray bottle is likely quite safe to use, but the chance of a backfire could be reduced further by keeping the bottle as full as possible with liquid to limit the amount of available air inside for combustion.

[dagabu]

When my son was learning to spit flame, his trainer used a tight metal screen to shield him from burn back. The torch was held just on the other side of the screen and he spit the propellant through the screen, the flame simply will not pass through the screen when spit. It dose eventually burn off but not immediately.

 

Tiny orifices act in a similar manner, the flame simply will not travel down the hole.

 

-dag

[RobPrideaux]

Hey guys, that DMX controlled machine is pretty amazing. I have a friend in China who I've asked to find out more about them, but I did find one on Amazon.com, although it looks a little sketchy. The one that holds four cans can make a four color fireball, which is pretty crazy. The fuels come in what look like spraypaint cans, and I bet I could rig some sort of hokey sprayer and ignition system to the can, in which case I wouldn't need to spend $700 on two machines that I don't need. Thanks optimus.

 

There's also this projector, which I've messaged them to see if I can use without a license.

 

 

That said, I assume nobody knows anybody with some of those machines. Or do you? Or, hypothetically, if I bought a couple, do you know anybody who'd want to buy them?

 

 

I'll keep you posted.

 

So, Mumbles, this airbrush idea would...let me spray a finer and smaller burst of solution? I forget, will alcohol from a spray bottle ignite, or is it too coarse?

 

Rob

[Mumbles]

From a spray bottle it will ignite. I was thinking more on how to replicate that machine.