Synthesis of Copper Chloride

[Kenny]

Lately Ive been trying to create copper chloride(II) with table salt(sodium chloride) and copper through electrolysis.I have a few ?s to ask.

1.Does this work?

2.What electrodes work and polarization?

3.I did this once with two copper electrodes and ended once with a disgusting sludge and a blue-green residue at the bottom.Was the residue copper chloride?

4.If it was or if you have a suggestion how do I seperate the copper chloride from the salt and sludge?My dad said try something with solubility of salt and copper chloride.

 

I also open to buying the right materials like platium elctrodes which brings me to another?.Will hardrive plates work?I heard some thing about them being cover in platinum but he also said it might just be chrome.

[TigerTail]

I do not really have a suggestion to get it right but I sure can point out what's going on.

 

The solution has Na⁺, Cl^-, H⁺ and OH^- ions.

 

At cathode(negative terminal), H⁺ is being reduced to H₂. Whereas at anode(positive terminal), Cu is being oxidised to Cu²⁺. Now the solution has OH^- , Na⁺, Cu²⁺ , Cl^- ions and more H⁺ which are yet to be reduced.

 

Cu²⁺ and OH^- ions precipitate out as Cu(OH)₂(greenish blue gelatinous substance), leaving behind Na⁺ and Cl^- ions in solution{along with H⁺ and OH^- which form the solvent(water )}.

 

According to another thread(on black copper oxide), CuCl₂ can be made by reacting HCl with CuCO₃ or CuO.

 

I hope this helps.

 

EDIT- Corrected error pointed out by Mumbles and refined entire answer to be more correct chemically.

 

SECOND EDIT-Corrected a mistake made in first edit.

 

THIRD EDIT(grrr...)-minor changes.

Edited July 11, 2011 by TigerTail

[Mumbles]

You can only form chlorine under certain conditions, this is the chemical process behind a chlorate cell. More likely, it's going to be going Cu ---> Cu2+ + 2e- or producing oxygen.

[TigerTail]

Agreed. I was wrong. It is copper being oxidised forming Cu²⁺ ions in solution.

[WSM]

I believe the simplest way to make copper chloride is to digest scrap copper in hydrochloric acid. If you have fine stranded copper wire (virtually pure copper) without any insulation and strong pool acid (~31.45% concentration), simply put cut up bits of copper in the acid and wait. Sooner or later it should all be copper chloride.

 

Let us know what you try.

 

I'm surprised no one mentioned the possible creation of copper chlorate by the electrochemical process you were proposing. That material can be very treacherous. Be careful.

 

WSM

[asilentbob]

... and any process using sodium _____ will contaminate your product with sodium, making it unfit for pyrotechnic color use.

[Kenny]

... and any process using sodium _____ will contaminate your product with sodium, making it unfit for pyrotechnic color use.

 

That why I wanted to know if you could separate the two through solubility.

[TigerTail]

1)This method does not work as is.

2)Sorry I have no clue.

3)Pale greenish blue gelatinous residue is copper hydroxide(if thats what your residue looks like). I do not understand what exactly you are referring to as sludge.

3)Separation based on solubility products will definitely lead to some contamination, and since sodium is such a strong colouring agent and blue is a tough colour to produce, you probably won't get pure enough copper chloride(if at all you somehow get a mixture of it and a sodium salt).

 

If at all you produce some copper(II) chloride in your solution, it will colour it blue green(more towards green generally).

[Mumbles]

If you're going to digest copper metal with HCl, it's sped up by adding a little bit of hydrogen peroxide or some nitrate salts. HCl isn't an oxidizing acid, so it can't dissolve most of the "noble metals", of which copper is one, along with gold, silver, etc.

 

Kenny, I really suggest you get a chemistry book and start reading. A few pyro books would probably do you well as well. You give off the vibe that you really have no idea what you're talking about in most cases, and have done little to no research toward anything you wish to accomplish. Youtube is not a legitimate source of information.

[Kenny]

If you're going to digest copper metal with HCl, it's sped up by adding a little bit of hydrogen peroxide or some nitrate salts. HCl isn't an oxidizing acid, so it can't dissolve most of the "noble metals", of which copper is one, along with gold, silver, etc.

 

Kenny, I really suggest you get a chemistry book and start reading. A few pyro books would probably do you well as well. You give off the vibe that you really have no idea what you're talking about in most cases, and have done little to no research toward anything you wish to accomplish. Youtube is not a legitimate source of information.

 

Trust me I know.The problem is all my dad's chemistry books are in German and I can read little to none German.Also keep in mind I'm a beginner and need to get myself orientated.Please give me a name for a good ENGLISH chemistry book but try not to let the price point of 150$.The reason I joined this forum is because of Nighthawkinlight YouTube channel who is also a member of this forum..What brought me to that was Nurdrages potassium and sodium nitrate salt making.The purple flame of kno3 and sugar caught my attention so I bought myself a pound of kno3 of of eBay.I know I have a long way to go but going to fast has always been a weakness of mine.Before this I was mostly just into computers.I'm sorry if I gave you a bad impression.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Kenny

[Mumbles]

There are a number of copyright expired chemistry texts hosted here: http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/index.html The forum is excellent as well. There are a lot, and most probably wont be of immediate use to you, but there are certainly several gems. There are three that no home chemist should really be without.

 

Chemistry of Powder and Explosives - Tenny L. Davis

Practical Organic Chemistry - Arthur Vogel

Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry - Georg Brauer

[Kenny]

There are a number of copyright expired chemistry texts hosted here: http://library.scien...rary/index.html The forum is excellent as well. There are a lot, and most probably wont be of immediate use to you, but there are certainly several gems. There are three that no home chemist should really be without.

 

Chemistry of Powder and Explosives - Tenny L. Davis

Practical Organic Chemistry - Arthur Vogel

Handbook of Preparative Inorganic Chemistry - Georg Brauer

 

Thanks

[madmandotcom]

cuso4+HCL>cucl+H2so4

not sure how helpful this will be as i am yet to get round to seperating my mixture but a simple dispalcement reaction with any copper product and any chloride should do the trick

[Mumbles]

You really need to learn to write chemical formulas if you want any chance of learning or getting help with chemistry. Both in terms of proper element abbreviations, and balancing equations. Anyway, that reaction very likely will not work.

[madmandotcom]

we were doing displacement reactions at school the other day, the hydrogen is more reactive than the copper, so it will take over the copper, which will then bind itself to the chlorine that the hydrogen left behind as there is nothing else for it to grab on to

[Mumbles]

You should probably re-read that section of the book. What you're referring to is the activity series of metals. That is for the displacement of one metal by another. This is driven by entropy. For instance if you added metallic iron to a copper chloride solution, you'd precipitate copper metal and be left with iron chloride. Similarly if you added hydrochloric acid to iron metal, the iron would "displace" the hydrogen and make iron chloride and hydrogen gas. If you add hydrochloric acid to copper metal, it will not react as it cannot "displace" the hydrogen. This is why dissolving copper and gold and other similar metals require oxidizing acids like nitric acid to dissolve them.

 

The same principle does not hold true for already oxidized species, such as mixing two compounds. Mixing table salt and copper sulfate does not make copper chloride and sodium sulfate for instance, at least not cleanly. That nasty little thing called entropy that drives the activity series, also happens to make your proposed reaction not work. By your same logic mixing vinegar and table salt, two common materials used in hot sauces, pickles, etc. would make hydrochloric acid but common sense tells us that doesn't happen.

 

The entropy here is that the reaction wants to make the weakest acid and base pair. Sulfuric acid is a stronger acid than HCl, and by default sulfate is a weaker base than chloride. Thus the HCl/Copper sulfate combo will be preferred. If you added sulfuric acid to copper chloride and heated it at least it would make hydrochloric acid gas and copper sulfate.

 

You can however reduce copper salts with hydrogen gas. Before you get too excited, you'll need higher temperatures and pressure than you can produce at home, and you're unlikely to make sulfuric acid.

[Peret]

Use ferric chloride, the stuff used for etching PCBs. It's cheap, safe and easily available, you may even be able to get it at Radio Shack. Dissolve copper in it until it won't take any more - it helps if you keep the solution very hot. Filter the iron hydroxide out of the muddy brown residue and you should be left with a clear green solution of copper chloride. Wash the filtrate to dissolve out any copper chloride that precipitated out earlier. Boil the solution down until crystals start to form, then let it cool and filter out the crystals. Don't pour the residue down the drain, as the authorities are always alert for copper chloride in waste water and if you do it repeatedly, they will make an effort to find you.

[madmandotcom]

C2H4O2, this compound contains carbon, which has a habit of rendering other elements in a compound inert

on the other hand meanwhile, i have made green copper chloride with HCL and CuSo4, aswell as these experiments here:

lead nitrate+pot. iodide> pot. nitrate+ lead iodide

iron chloride+sodium hydroxide>sodium chloride+iron hydroxide

sodium hydroxide+copper sulfate>sodium sulfate+copper hydroxide

silver nitrate+pot. chloride>Ag chloride+pot. nitrate

copper sulfate+sodium carbonate>Cu carbonate+na sulfate

Ba chloride+Na sulfate>nacl+Baso4

Na chloride+ Pb nitrate>nano3+PbCl

[WSM]

The simplest method of producing copper (II) chloride is to neutralize hydrochloric acid with a basic copper compound (copper (II) carbonate or copper (II) hydroxide). Test with pH paper or a pH meter to determine when the results are 7.0.

 

WSM

[Mumbles]

C2H4O2, this compound contains carbon, which has a habit of rendering other elements in a compound inert

on the other hand meanwhile, i have made green copper chloride with HCL and CuSo4, aswell as these experiments here:

lead nitrate+pot. iodide> pot. nitrate+ lead iodide

iron chloride+sodium hydroxide>sodium chloride+iron hydroxide

sodium hydroxide+copper sulfate>sodium sulfate+copper hydroxide

silver nitrate+pot. chloride>Ag chloride+pot. nitrate

copper sulfate+sodium carbonate>Cu carbonate+na sulfate

Ba chloride+Na sulfate>nacl+Baso4

Na chloride+ Pb nitrate>nano3+PbCl

 

Tell you what, try getting the sulfuric acid out of the copper mix and let us know how it goes.

 

If you had any knowledge of chemistry, you'd notice that all of those reactions you mentioned all have an insoluble product. They work because there is an entropic driving force from the precipitation of one of the products, not because of the activity series.

[madmandotcom]

They work because there is an entropic driving force from the precipitation of one of the products, not because of the activity series.

the same theory applies, i was mentioning the reactivity series as extra proof

try mixing the hcl, and cuso4, you will end up with a copper chloride deposit at the bottom

[Mumbles]

You seem to be thinking there is some magical redox chemistry involved in the reaction you're proposing. I thought you were just really, REALLY bad at balancing formulas, but you apparently really thought you were going to make Copper (I) Chloride from Copper (II) Sulfate.

 

Your original formula:

 

CuSO4 + HCl ---> CuCl + H2SO4

 

As common as the reaction that produces a proton and electron out of thin air is, it wont be happening here

 

The real formula that anyone who knows chemistry would be able to come up with:

 

CuSO4 + 2 HCl ---> CuCl2 + H2SO4

 

Copper (II) Chloride is soluble in water and will not precipitate to make the reaction go forward. I don't know of any elements off hand that has a soluble sulfate but insoluble chloride. Maybe Thallium, but that would be out of your reach for several reasons.

 

I suppose you could try adding a bunch of copper metal to the reaction to reduce the copper (II) to copper (I). I still don't think it will work out for you. Have you tried checking for brands of drain cleaner sold locally that are sulfuric acid, or looking for battery refill jugs? There is another ghetto method to make sulfuric acid where you burn a mix of sulfur and KNO3 in a 5 gallon bucket with water on the bottom to produce extremely low conc acid.

[madmandotcom]

i have checked drain cleaner and battery jugs, they are far out of my budget-$60 a liter

i still end up with hydrogen sulfate, the reason i am getting the percipitate is due to my ratio of acid to sulfate

[Mumbles]

What is said ratio of sulfate to hydrochloric acid. I would like to recreate this for myself.

[madmandotcom]

i just kept adding until it wouldnt dissolve any more