Vrizla Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 I did a Google search and searched the forum to find an anti cake agent for KClO3. I only found one wholesaler that sold potassium chlorate with some sort of anti cake in it. I lost the link and I didn't recognize the agent used. I'm very careful when using chlorates I'm assuming that Cab-O-Sil is not used for a reason. Does it produce a volatile reaction? My last order of chlorate was really chunky. I don't have a dedicated fine mesh screen for Chlorates so I had to buy a fine mesh kitchen strainer from Walmart. It worked, but I need to get a better one.
Xtreme Pyro Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 I did a Google search and searched the forum to find an anti cake agent for KClO3. I only found one wholesaler that sold potassium chlorate with some sort of anti cake in it. I lost the link and I didn't recognize the agent used. I'm very careful when using chlorates I'm assuming that Cab-O-Sil is not used for a reason. Does it produce a volatile reaction? My last order of chlorate was really chunky. I don't have a dedicated fine mesh screen for Chlorates so I had to buy a fine mesh kitchen strainer from Walmart. It worked, but I need to get a better one. This is a good question, I would like to know this aswell. But you are right, Cab-O-Sil is usually the anti cake agent in different chemicals, but I have not seen it used in Pot Chlorate either.
Mumbles Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 It might just be one of those supplier things. Potassium Chlorate largely comes from the match industry, so perhaps they have their own preferences. Skylighter has potassium chlorate with PCP anticake. I haven't the foggiest idea what PCP is as far as anti-cakes go. This place sells it with Anti-cake http://scienceforyou.net/pyrotechnic-supplies/oxidizers/potassium-chlorate.html This place also sells it with anti-cake http://www.firechemical.com/oxidizers I personally do not know of any reason that one couldn't add cab-o-sil to potassium chlorate on your own. It just in general doesn't seem to be available commercially with it for one reason or another.
WSM Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 If you plan to make whistle mix with your chlorate, avoid using cab-o-sil (the whistles would be more prone to crumbling than without cab-o-sil; and likely to go BOOM rather than whistle). If you plan to use the chlorate for bound compositions (stars, for example), then cab-o-sil shouldn't be an issue (it always worked fine for me). If one wished to make whistle mix from chlorate with cab-o-sil; 3% additional red gum and wet mixing using denatured alcohol and ricing through a screen, followed by thorough drying will overcome the problems introduced by the cab-o-sil. Dry pressing the mix thus prepared into tubes will give solid and sound whistle devices (I've done this, it works). WSM
Vrizla Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Thanks for all the input! I'm going to try and treat a small batch with Cab-O-Sil and see if I notice any adverse reactions. I mainly only use KCIO4 for most of my stars and other compositions, and I have found the clumping of KCIO3 to be one big PITA but they extra work is usually worth it . I just did a google search of PCP + anti cake and the first result that came up was this thread. I double checked my search settings and did a search from another ip address and it still comes up! That's pretty crazy! Edited July 1, 2011 by Vrizla
Mumbles Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 The other day when I was looking it up, I'd get skylighter and the skylighter clone they run. After that it was primarily just websites about drugs. Cake is an all too common term when dealing with clandestine chemistry.
superstring Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 I'm wondering if the PCP is a misprint, or perhaps intentional. there's TCP which would be Tri Calcium Phosphate. Tricalcium phosphate (E341 (iii)) – Used as an anti caking agent ...The other day when I was looking it up, I'd get skylighter and the skylighter clone they run. After that it was primarily just websites about drugs. Cake is an all too common term when dealing with clandestine chemistry.
WSM Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 I'm wondering if the PCP is a misprint, or perhaps intentional. there's TCP which would be Tri Calcium Phosphate. Tricalcium phosphate (E341 (iii)) – Used as an anti caking agent ... Perhaps they use PCP to represent poly calcium phosphate?! Tricalcium phosphate is a common anti-cake agent employed in ammonium perchlorate; especially the roller-milled stuff used in aerospace applications. Cab-O-Sil (fumed silica) doesn't effect the colors like TCP, BUT is known to cause problems with AP under certain conditions (ammonia smell while milling AP with COS, comes to mind). When milling potassium chlorate or potassium perchlorate (or even potassium nitrate), Cab-O-Sil should be okay. Be sure NOT to use COS in oxidizers used in "dry press" operations and I'm told silica interferes with the glitter/tremalon effect, so avoid it's use in nitrates planned for them. WSM
Mumbles Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 I've been wondering myself with a bit of chagrin if the CP stood for calcium phosphate. I tend to avoid anything calcium to keep colors pure. In some ways I'd prefer it to be the dissociative drug and risk going mildly insane from breathing it in than it be calcium.
dave321 Posted July 1, 2011 Posted July 1, 2011 Perhaps they use PCP to represent poly calcium phosphate?! Tricalcium phosphate is a common anti-cake agent employed in ammonium perchlorate; especially the roller-milled stuff used in aerospace applications. Cab-O-Sil (fumed silica) doesn't effect the colors like TCP, BUT is known to cause problems with AP under certain conditions (ammonia smell while milling AP with COS, comes to mind). When milling potassium chlorate or potassium perchlorate (or even potassium nitrate), Cab-O-Sil should be okay. Be sure NOT to use COS in oxidizers used in "dry press" operations and I'm told silica interferes with the glitter/tremalon effect, so avoid it's use in nitrates planned for them. WSM i would have thought that cabosil should be pretty inert.it is possible to get an hydrophobic version which should actually help protect from moisture.aerosil r972 is the degusa equivalent. at levels used to improve flow, typically 0.2 to 0.5 % i would think it has minimal effect on the composition.i routinely use 1% in pot chlorate and most other materials which tend to agglomerate , like colophony, and it seems pretty good. i would be interested to here more details on the "problems with ammon perchlorate compostions" dave
WSM Posted July 4, 2011 Posted July 4, 2011 i would have thought that cabosil should be pretty inert.it is possible to get an hydrophobic version which should actually help protect from moisture.aerosil r972 is the degusa equivalent. at levels used to improve flow, typically 0.2 to 0.5 % i would think it has minimal effect on the composition.i routinely use 1% in pot chlorate and most other materials which tend to agglomerate , like colophony, and it seems pretty good. i would be interested to here more details on the "problems with ammon perchlorate compostions" dave I recall a safety notice a few years ago by AFN (if I remember correctly) about ball milling AP with Cab-O-Sil and it breaking down and giving off an ammonia smell. I never experienced this myself and I do use hydrophobic Cab-O-Sil. I imagine hydrophilic Cab-O-Sil could cause a problem. Who knows? I have rarely ever milled ammonium perchlorate, prefering to use standard grades for my experiments. WSM
hunanchemie Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 We can supply KCLO3 with anti cake agent and without anti cake agent at the competitive price and quality. If you are interested in it, please contact us. ThanksWang I did a Google search and searched the forum to find an anti cake agent for KClO3. I only found one wholesaler that sold potassium chlorate with some sort of anti cake in it. I lost the link and I didn't recognize the agent used. I'm very careful when using chlorates I'm assuming that Cab-O-Sil is not used for a reason. Does it produce a volatile reaction? My last order of chlorate was really chunky. I don't have a dedicated fine mesh screen for Chlorates so I had to buy a fine mesh kitchen strainer from Walmart. It worked, but I need to get a better one.
Potassiumchlorate Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 (edited) Good KClO3 is usually free-flowing by itself. If not, I sieve it with +1% SiO2 through a simple 400 micron (about 40 mesh) kitchen strainer. In really hard cases it should be enough to ballmill it with the anticaking agent for one hour, never in the same jar that you used for BP, though, except if exceptionally well cleaned. Edited October 31, 2011 by Potassiumchlorate
WSM Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 We can supply KCLO3 with anti cake agent and without anti cake agent at the competitive price and quality. If you are interested in it, please contact us.ThanksWang Welcome Wang, and thanks for the offer. You didn't include the contact information or link. Do you have a purity breakdown of the material offered and what grades are available (technical, reagent etc.)? I ask because some contaminants, even in trace amounts, can cause sensitivity issues with certain compositions, and knowing what is there allows safety precautions to be taken. Thanks. WSM
WSM Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 Good KClO3 is usually free-flowing by itself. If not, I sieve it with +1% SiO2 through a simple 400 micron (about 40 mesh) kitchen strainer. In really hard cases it should be enough to ballmill it with the anticaking agent for one hour, never in the same jar that you used for BP, though, except if exceptionally well cleaned. True. A friend showed me a mixing technique that I now use: If formerly free-flowing oxidizer has caked hard, simply "grate" the weighed, large pieces on the mixing screen to quickly restore the material to a fine powder before sieving the mixed composition together. This works very well with clumped potassium nitrate and there's no reason to expect any problems with chlorate or perchlorate. I keep separate sets of marked screens for chlorate and sulfur-bearing mixes. A wise precaution is to use another set of screens for ammonium perchlorate mixes and mark them well so mix-ups don't happen !!! WSM
WSM Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 We can supply KCLO3 with anti cake agent and without anti cake agent at the competitive price and quality. If you are interested in it, please contact us.ThanksWang Hi Wang, As a manufacturer's representative, can you tell us what anticake is used in your chlorate? We are debating this and you could settle the issue (at least for your Company's product), for us. Thanks for your input. WSM
Mumbles Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I guess the real question is why do you really need anti-cake? Sure it makes it nicer to handle to a degree, but since everything is screened anyway, I've never seen a need to include it myself or special order it. I actually dislike it. I'd prefer to spend an extra few minutes dealing with the composition than risk contamination or not really know what's in it. A member here was telling me last night that he believed that anti-cake in his burst mixture was giving him issues when trying to coat it onto rice hulls.
50AE Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I agree with Mumbles. An anti caking agent isn't needed at all. Screens however are very important and essential in pyro, just as a ball mill is.
Potassiumchlorate Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 It isn't necessary with anti-cake, but if you don't use it you might have to screen each chemical, at least the salts, before you start screening the whole composition. Not a big deal but time-consuming and boring. I only use anti-cake if it's really hard caked, though. Potassium perchlorate seems to cake harder than potassium chlorate, for some reason.
Mumbles Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 In the grand scheme of things, compared to the time you spend rolling, cutting, or pumping, one screening to break up any lumps is quite minimal. I just add the chemicals to a bucket or right to the screen when I am making a composition. The first time through will break up all lumps and do a rough mixing. Two more passes, and it's quite well incorporated. Even if I pre-mix everything together with my hand, I still usually need 3 passes anyway to ensure everything is as homogeneous as can be. It should be noted that a coarser screen is better for breaking up lumps. I have stackable screens, so it's really not an issue for me. I put the 12 or 16 mesh on top of the 30 or 40 mesh screen I'm using to mix the comp. The coarser screens are tough enough to break up everything to managable sizes, and it also pre-mixes the powder a bit. Most everything but the clumps falls right through anyway.
Potassiumchlorate Posted October 31, 2011 Posted October 31, 2011 I guess I'm lazy. When I make parlon stars, using the parlon as the binder, I simply just use one 400 micron (around 40 mesh) kitchen strainer. Sieving three times will make it homogenous enough for that kind of stars. Finer screens will actually separate some chemicals, since it's very hard to have the same particle size on all chemicals. Most of my chemicals pass through a 170 mesh screen, though, but that isnt' the best way to make it homogenous, curiously enough.
guntoteninfadel Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 . I'm very careful when using chlorates I'm assuming that Cab-O-Sil is not used for a reason.. scienceforyou.net sells it with cab-o-sil, i use it when i need it and have not had any problems. Then again I use so little..........
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 1, 2011 Posted November 1, 2011 There is silicon dioxide in some primes to make it hotter, but that is in form of diatomaceous earth. I don't see how it could possibly react with the potassium chlorate.
Vrizla Posted May 12, 2012 Author Posted May 12, 2012 I guess the real question is why do you really need anti-cake? Sure it makes it nicer to handle to a degree, but since everything is screened anyway, I've never seen a need to include it myself or special order it. I actually dislike it. I'd prefer to spend an extra few minutes dealing with the composition than risk contamination or not really know what's in it. A member here was telling me last night that he believed that anti-cake in his burst mixture was giving him issues when trying to coat it onto rice hulls. Hey Guy's, I'm gearing up for another year's show; unfortunately as I have said before I only really have time to be a seasonal sky artist.. Last year I treated a batch of KCIO3 with 1% Cab-o-sil don't remember what O used it for, but I think it is effecting compositions this year; need to order more and leave the Cab out and just screen. Even if it isn't the cause unfortunately I learned the hard way it's still not worth it as it doesn't keep it free flowing very long.
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