Steps Toward Legal Manufacture, Transportation, and Storage

[cogbarry]

There is no longer a type 20 or type 54 license.

 

http://www.atf.gov/f...f-f-5400-13.pdf

 

Flash is a pyrotechnical composition and is subject to ATF rules that also pertain to fireworks with the addition of BULK reports and the max of 10# of flash in a manufacturing area.

 

Ground salutes and M-80s are not the same, ground salutes are NOT placed on the ground, they are hung off the ground, M-80s are set on the ground. Bulk salutes (see the ATF for details) can be stored if they are "mixed" with color shells and at this time that means a single color shell in a case of salutes makes that case not bulk salutes.

 

The ATF allows for explosives to be made and used on your property on the same day by federal ruling, this has NOTHING to do with state or local ordinances or laws. Flash is an explosive and therefore meets this requirement.

 

-dag

 

Thanks Dag but I'm not sure what the application you link to is exactly. Plain old explosives permit I guess. Are you saying I would need to do this in addition to the manufacturers license? Also, as usual, I've heard conflicting info. One source told me that he had tried the single color shell in box and was scolded by an ATF agent. He said it had to be 50-50. By non-bulk salute, I meant exactly that. I know the rules change when they are "bulk" (a bunch of salutes in a box with nothing else) or if open flash is involved. All I want to do is make aerial shells, both color and salutes or color with bottom shots, etc without getting in trouble. If my understanding is correct, if I get a type 54, this will satisfy this with the federal government. What you're saying is that making an aerial salute is bassically the same in the eyes of the ATF as making a color shell correct?

 

Regarding M-80's and/or ground salutes I know they are considered "infernal devices" in my state and I believe it is a felony to possess them. I'm also pretty sure they are illegal under federal law. I am confused though as I know they are commonly used at events and I don't know of any one getting pinched. Personally, I'd rather see a salute in the air so I see no reason to manufacture these and risk the trouble.

[Peret]

It's pretty much the same old form. The top right option on Page 2 is the same as "type 54". It doesn't specifically allow you to manufacture but as Dag said, you don't actually need a manufacturer's license since you are permitted to do that on your own property for non commercial purposes without a license under Federal law. What you need is to be able to transport and store them, and a Type 54 or 'user' license takes care of that. Since a 'user' license doesn't say anything about manufacturing, you won't have to answer any questions about what or where you make stuff.

[dagabu]

Thanks Dag but I'm not sure what the application you link to is exactly. Plain old explosives permit I guess. Are you saying I would need to do this in addition to the manufacturers license? Also, as usual, I've heard conflicting info. One source told me that he had tried the single color shell in box and was scolded by an ATF agent. He said it had to be 50-50. By non-bulk salute, I meant exactly that. I know the rules change when they are "bulk" (a bunch of salutes in a box with nothing else) or if open flash is involved. All I want to do is make aerial shells, both color and salutes or color with bottom shots, etc without getting in trouble. If my understanding is correct, if I get a type 54, this will satisfy this with the federal government. What you're saying is that making an aerial salute is bassically the same in the eyes of the ATF as making a color shell correct?

 

Regarding M-80's and/or ground salutes I know they are considered "infernal devices" in my state and I believe it is a felony to possess them. I'm also pretty sure they are illegal under federal law. I am confused though as I know they are commonly used at events and I don't know of any one getting pinched. Personally, I'd rather see a salute in the air so I see no reason to manufacture these and risk the trouble.

 

I think you have misunderstood, this IS the AFT application, it is the ONLY application you need for fireworks manufacturing.

The ATF agent in the field can say just about anything but the ruling is that bulk means "Of one kind" and adding even a single color shell break the bulk definition... At least for now. Next week may be completely different.

I am saying that an areal salute is the same thing to the ATF, both are display shells, both are regarded as the same in the field for all intents but for bulk storage, salutes must be stored in a type 1 magazine.

I think you mean infernal machine as a quick Google of the legal web page for infernal devices came up empty.

An example:

"The term "infernal machine", shall include any device for endangering life or doing unusual damage to property, or both, by fire or, explosion, whether or not contrived to ignite or explode automatically and whether or not disguised so as to appear harmless."

2006 Massachusetts Code - Section 102A. Infernal machine; possession; definition; notice of seizure.

In most cases, the use of the term infernal machine is thrown out immediately when challenged due to specific intent of the device. An M-80 used to blow up a mailbox IS an infernal machine while a ground salute with a string tied around it would be considered a firework.

I am really confused with your statement of, "Personally, I'd rather see a salute in the air so I see no reason to manufacture these and risk the trouble." as it indicates that you believe that an arial salute would be classed as a firework while a ground salute would not? Would a jury think the the addition of a leader of quick match would change it so?

Please stop grouping M-80s with actual fireworks, M-80s are simulation effects and are NOT fireworks.

-dag

Edited October 1, 2011 by dagabu

[cogbarry]

 

I think you have misunderstood, this IS the AFT application, it is the ONLY application you need for fireworks manufacturing.

 

The ATF agent in the field can say just about anything but the ruling is that bulk means "Of one kind" and adding even a single color shell break the bulk definition... At least for now. Next week may be completely different.

 

I am saying that an areal salute is the same thing to the ATF, both are display shells, both are regarded as the same in the field for all intents but for bulk storage, salutes must be stored in a type 1 magazine.

 

I think you mean infernal machine as a quick Google of the legal web page for infernal devices came up empty.

 

An example:

 

"The term "infernal machine", shall include any device for endangering life or doing unusual damage to property, or both, by fire or, explosion, whether or not contrived to ignite or explode automatically and whether or not disguised so as to appear harmless."

2006 Massachusetts Code - Section 102A. Infernal machine; possession; definition; notice of seizure.

In most cases, the use of the term infernal machine is thrown out immediately when challenged due to specific intent of the device. An M-80 used to blow up a mailbox IS an infernal machine while a ground salute with a string tied around it would be considered a firework.

 

I am really confused with your statement of, "Personally, I'd rather see a salute in the air so I see no reason to manufacture these and risk the trouble." as it indicates that you believe that an arial salute would be classed as a firework while a ground salute would not? Would a jury think the the addition of a leader of quick match would change it so?

 

Please stop grouping M-80s with actual fireworks, M-80s are simulation effects and are NOT fireworks.

 

-dag

 

I mean paper/cardboard tubes filled with flash with a visco fuse. If I used the term "M-80" it was only because it's used as a common term these days for that size/type of salute, sorry if the term is technically incorrect or used wrong, wrong context, etc. I will refrain from using the term in the context of fireworks. I do consider ground salutes fireworks, that IS the intent after all, well, mine at least. However, in the context of trying to get/be legal, it's not my definitions I'm concerned with it's the authorities. I'll add that all questions I asked are specifically questions on federal law as I doubt many here are familiar with my state's laws.

 

There is a friend of mine in NH who is being charged with felony possession of an "infernal device", this is the term he used. It was what he called a "1/4 stick". I believe this is a state law and not federal law he is charged with breaking. I do know that fireworks containing over certain amount of flash are illegal under federal law but that may only apply to consumer products. Maybe you or someone can clarify?

 

Sorry, you're right I did misunderstand the app. I'm running Firefox on Linux and the PDF plugin isn't the greatest. Never saw the 2nd page and didn't look too hard as I thought this was something other than the ATF form I looked at when I began researching the steps to becoming legal.

 

Thanks to you and all who have provided information on this, I really appreciate it. I do wish to pursue both my pyro hobby and PT display fireworks job further and the more knowledge I gain the better.

 

Oh, and by my statement on ground salutes, I simply meant that I personally thought I'd refrain from using them until I understand the laws better as I can still make aerial salutes and enjoy them more any ways. Please don't read too much into my statements, I am not putting anything/anybody down, not judging.

 

One more thing. The friend I mentioned told me that "if it has a visco fuse, it's an infernal device". This, in the context of ground salutes of course. If he is correct, this MAY mean that adding a lift charge and quick match could/would change the definition of the device and may alter the outcome of having to be judged by the jury in the first place. Again, I suspect this is a NH issue but other states (like massachussets as you referenced) may have similar laws.

 

My apologies for getting so far off topic.

Edited October 2, 2011 by cogbarry

[dagabu]

I mean paper/cardboard tubes filled with flash with a visco fuse. If I used the term "M-80" it was only because it's used as a common term these days for that size/type of salute, sorry if the term is technically incorrect or used wrong, wrong context, etc. I will refrain from using the term in the context of fireworks. I do consider ground salutes fireworks, that IS the intent after all, well, mine at least. However, in the context of trying to get/be legal, it's not my definitions I'm concerned with it's the authorities. I'll add that all questions I asked are specifically questions on federal law as I doubt many here are familiar with my state's laws.

 

There is a friend of mine in NH who is being charged with felony possession of an "infernal device", this is the term he used. It was what he called a "1/4 stick". I believe this is a state law and not federal law he is charged with breaking. I do know that fireworks containing over certain amount of flash are illegal under federal law but that may only apply to consumer products. Maybe you or someone can clarify?

 

Thanks for clarification, infernal device is in the state statute for New Hampshire. The charges should be dropped for that and a good criminal defense lawyer should be hired. I recommend Bill Ofca as an expert witness as he knows what an infernal device is and is not.

 

Sorry, you're right I did misunderstand the app. I'm running Firefox on Linux and the PDF plugin isn't the greatest. Never saw the 2nd page and didn't look too hard as I thought this was something other than the ATF form I looked at when I began researching the steps to becoming legal.

 

Thanks to you and all who have provided information on this, I really appreciate it. I do wish to pursue both my pyro hobby and PT display fireworks job further and the more knowledge I gain the better.

 

Oh, and by my statement on ground salutes, I simply meant that I personally thought I'd refrain from using them until I understand the laws better as I can still make aerial salutes and enjoy them more any ways. Please don't read too much into my statements, I am not putting anything/anybody down, not judging.

 

One more thing. The friend I mentioned told me that "if it has a visco fuse, it's an infernal device". This, in the context of ground salutes of course. If he is correct, this MAY mean that adding a lift charge and quick match could/would change the definition of the device and may alter the outcome of having to be judged by the jury in the first place. Again, I suspect this is a NH issue but other states (like massachussets as you referenced) may have similar laws.

 

My apologies for getting so far off topic.

 

 

 

[cogbarry]

Thanks for clarification, infernal device is in the state statute for New Hampshire. The charges should be dropped for that and a good criminal defense lawyer should be hired. I recommend Bill Ofca as an expert witness as he knows what an infernal device is and is not.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation, that's a good idea. I think it will be dropped but won't discuss this much more here. I wish the laws at all levels were more clear on these things but unfortunately, it is what it is and we have to deal with it. The more we know, the better.

[NightHawkInLight]

Had my interview with the ATF investigator today. I was honest and straight forward about my intent to build and that worked out pretty well. On the ATF end everything seems fine, I just need to send in a few more things.

 

On the local side of things that's a different story, as I suspected it might be. The ATF investigator had to give a call to the local fire marshal to inform him that I was applying for the manufacturers license. He about busted a nut and told the investigator that he can grant the license but I've got to go through him and the township if I want to use it. The ATF investigator told me he was probably full of it, but he couldn't grant my license until I could be sure there was no township regulation to get in the way. The fire chief showed up at my house a half hour later, fortunately I wasn't there so he left a card. I called him back and received quite a long stream of loud nonsense pertaining to how there's no way I can legally 'make fireworks or explosives or whatever' without going through him and the township. He then told me that he's done talking to me until I go get approval from the township.

 

Fortunately, I ran right up to the township office from there and they were very helpful in looking through the codes and zoning regulation. No problem there, they said I'm fine as far as the local regulation goes to manufacture as a hobby, or even a home occupation.

 

Now the issue I need to face is calling back the disgruntled fire chief and kindly explaining that nothing in the local regulation is an issue. Hopefully he sees things my way - I would really prefer not to get him on any worse terms by telling him that it's legal for me to manufacture with or without his approval.

[Richtee]

Good for you, Ben! I forgot to ask..who was the ATF person? Outta curiosity... I know a couple for some reason

 

I found the investigator pretty cool, actually.

[NightHawkInLight]

Good for you, Ben! I forgot to ask..who was the ATF person? Outta curiosity... I know a couple for some reason

 

I found the investigator pretty cool, actually.

 

If I were in the position he's in I probably wouldn't want my name brought up on a pyro forum. But yeah, he was an alright guy. The only thing I didn't like was his extreme bluntness and lack of extrapolation when he called my fire chief to inform him that 'someone in your district is applying for an explosive manufacturing license and will have explosive material on his property'. That opening line really didn't make things easy for me.

[Richtee]

If I were in the position he's in I probably wouldn't want my name brought up on a pyro forum. But yeah, he was an alright guy. The only thing I didn't like was his extreme bluntness and lack of extrapolation when he called my fire chief to inform him that 'someone in your district is applying for an explosive manufacturing license and will have explosive material on his property'. That opening line really didn't make things easy for me.

Understood. Yeah...possibly a LEETLE more tact and diplomacy could have been used.

[Algenco]

I was under the impression that the didn't want to talk until after all local requirements had been met first

[cogbarry]

Had my interview with the ATF investigator today. I was honest and straight forward about my intent to build and that worked out pretty well. On the ATF end everything seems fine, I just need to send in a few more things.

 

On the local side of things that's a different story, as I suspected it might be. The ATF investigator had to give a call to the local fire marshal to inform him that I was applying for the manufacturers license. He about busted a nut and told the investigator that he can grant the license but I've got to go through him and the township if I want to use it. The ATF investigator told me he was probably full of it, but he couldn't grant my license until I could be sure there was no township regulation to get in the way. The fire chief showed up at my house a half hour later, fortunately I wasn't there so he left a card. I called him back and received quite a long stream of loud nonsense pertaining to how there's no way I can legally 'make fireworks or explosives or whatever' without going through him and the township. He then told me that he's done talking to me until I go get approval from the township.

 

Fortunately, I ran right up to the township office from there and they were very helpful in looking through the codes and zoning regulation. No problem there, they said I'm fine as far as the local regulation goes to manufacture as a hobby, or even a home occupation.

 

Now the issue I need to face is calling back the disgruntled fire chief and kindly explaining that nothing in the local regulation is an issue. Hopefully he sees things my way - I would really prefer not to get him on any worse terms by telling him that it's legal for me to manufacture with or without his approval.

 

For those of that were confused regarding the ATF contacting the local officials, I think this clears it up. Thanks NightHawkInLight.

[Algenco]

I have a freind in Indiana that recently received a manufacturing license.

ATF told him over the phone to have the magazine inspected by the State and to have all paperwork required by the State completed and available for his inspection before the interveiw would begin

[nater]

I have a freind in Indiana that recently received a manufacturing license.

ATF told him over the phone to have the magazine inspected by the State and to have all paperwork required by the State completed and available for his inspection before the interveiw would begin

 

And yet another friend of mine who recently received a users permit and permitted magazine was told by his agent, that the ATF and the State would contact each other so both inspectors would come at the same time.

[Algenco]

that's the problem people are facing, it varies with inspectors

[NightHawkInLight]

I have a freind in Indiana that recently received a manufacturing license.

ATF told him over the phone to have the magazine inspected by the State and to have all paperwork required by the State completed and available for his inspection before the interveiw would begin

 

Yes, that is what I have always been told regarding magazines. I however am getting my license on contingency storage, and was told that I did not need to contact anyone locally until I installed my own magazine. In any case, there is nothing locally that can legally stop me from progressing in obtaining my license. Once that's done I won't have to deal with the fire chief again until I instal a magazine, and only then if I have it inspected and registered under my license so I can use it commercially.

[NightHawkInLight]

I received three blue envelopes in the mail today marked Martinsburg, West Virginia. I AM NOW A FEDERALLY LICENSED EXPLOSIVES MANUFACTURER!

 

And there was much rejoicing

 

Ah how long and hard I've worked for this sweet moment. Next step: Build a magazine.

Edited November 17, 2011 by NightHawkInLight

[moondogman]

Way great!!!! glad to hear it. I should make that my winter challenge. Congratulations!

Steve

 

Ya ever get to use that press frame?

[NightHawkInLight]

Way great!!!! glad to hear it. I should make that my winter challenge. Congratulations!

Steve

 

Ya ever get to use that press frame?

 

No I still haven't yet, probably won't until fireworks are legal in Michigan (which looks to be by January first). I'm sure I'll be using it often once I have a magazine. For now even with my license I won't build anything that needs storage, but having fireworks legal to shoot on site might let me make and shoot quick items like rockets that don't require dry time. It's a good looking little press, I'm excited to give it it's first run.

[Algenco]

Woo Hoo! Great news, congratulations http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/Algenco/cartoons%202/11.gif

 

http://i468.photobucket.com/albums/rr47/Algenco/cartoons/buddies.gif

[NightHawkInLight]

Thanks for posting that smiley Al and reminding me to go get some beer

[Algenco]

Thanks for posting that smiley Al and reminding me to go get some beer

 

 

Excellent reason to celebrate

[JFeve81]

Congrats! I would like to get a Manufacturing license of my own but TX requires there own license and it's $$$$.

[KuzkinaMat]

What Indian reservations are best known for having a favorable view of amateur pyrotechnics? (This is a more general question along the lines of "Where would you be totally okay to mix and set off powders on your property", not "Hey, where's the best place to go to buy a bunch of M-80s?")

 

And for that matter, how do Guam, Puerto Rico, and the Virgin Islands handle fireworks?

[ofpyro]

I was curious why a hobbyist builder would choose the license over the permit? I know the license allows one to manufacture but the ATF defines manufacturer as " any person engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for purposes of sale or distribution" It is my goal to purchase 1.3 fireworks, transport them, purchase explosive materials and make fireworks for my own use. Since the ATF has done away with the explosive/high explosive nomenclature I should be able to do this with an explosive permit???? I have access to a club type 4 magazine on my property.

 

Dick