NightHawkInLight Posted June 27, 2011 Posted June 27, 2011 I spent a good deal of time today finally getting going on my ATF license. The paperwork is filled out all except for the boxes of which type of permit I want. The more I think about it the more I want a manufacturer license - for circumstances that apply specifically to myself but not to the majority of other hobbyists that are fine under a user permit. A long and enlightening talk with a special agent in charge of explosive licensing convinced me to try to go that route. I'm still awaiting a call back from the Michigan branch of the ATF regarding what sort of things I'll have to look out for on a local level, if any. According to the special agent I talked to earlier today there really are no more requirements federally for a manufacturer as there are for a user permit holder, beyond filling out some environmental forms regarding disposal of chemicals to which he said I should answer N/A to most of the questions. I was also reaffirmed that someone in charge at the ATF actually knew what we were able to do as hobbyists with and without a license or permit without having to google it. He also said it was a good idea for me to get my license using contingency storage as I had planned, and then deal with adding a magazine of my own to the bill once I already have the license. One challenge at a time. I also went out and got my fingerprint card today. The officer that worked with me seemed disappointed when I told her that the ATF license I was applying for was to transport commercial fireworks rather than "to get a badass handgun" as she said she thought it might have been for That had me cracking up on the drive home. So right now I'm just awaiting my letter for contingency storage and a call from the Michigan ATF branch to be sure that I won't have too much extra trouble getting the manufacturer license. It sure feels good to have everything falling into place so far. We'll see if it stays that easy once the paperwork is sent in. Fingers crossed. Also, some of you who are also working on your license or thinking about it should check this out: Dave sent me a free copy just to help me out. Absolutely worth $20. The application is a little different than when he made his video but most of the questions are the same. It made things go much faster in knowing how to fill out the ap. It saved me a few hours of scratching my head and I'm sure a few questions I would have answered incorrectly. I'll keep you all updated with how the rest of the process goes with my application. Feel free to add thoughts and tips from past experience to help those of us still working toward ATF compliance.
Peret Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 Good going, NHIL. Dave's video is very helpful. I bought it a couple of years ago, but didn't proceed at the time because it's only guidance for a type 54 and I wanted a type 20. It seems now, as you say, that a type 54 user permit lets the average hobbyist do everything he wants*, the main thing being able legally to transport what you make. As far as the ATF is concerned, non-commercial manufacturing is already permitted, subject only to magazine storage which you need anyway for a type 54. I imagine a type 54 application causes a lot less alarm at the local level than the specter of someone applying for a license that would let them set up a nitroglycerin factory. * A type 54 still won't allow you to purchase cardboard tubes from Firefox.
NightHawkInLight Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 I imagine a type 54 application causes a lot less alarm at the local level than the specter of someone applying for a license that would let them set up a nitroglycerin factory. Quite right, that's my only concern. The ATF seems not to care one way or another which I apply for, the manufacturing just puts another $100 in their pocket. The local law is all I really want to learn more about, if there is any. Actually, the thought just struck me - The local government isn't even going to know about any of this to speak up about it. I don't think I need to breath a word to them until I talk to the fire department when I put in a magazine. They certainly don't have the power to tell the ATF not to grant my license. This could be easier than I thought. I'll find out soon enough.
Peret Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 I believe - I may be wrong - that the ATF won't accept your application unless you can prove you've already told the locals. Read the instructions that come with the forms carefully.
NightHawkInLight Posted June 28, 2011 Author Posted June 28, 2011 True that... -dag I was told by a reliable source to simply answer no to that question. I also spoke to the Michigan branch of the ATF today and they said they don't contact the local authorities at all no matter what sort of license I am applying for. The agent simply said it would be a good idea for me to contact them myself so they don't come shut my operations down. I'm not going to worry about it until I put in a magazine and am legally obligated to let the fire department know.
dagabu Posted June 28, 2011 Posted June 28, 2011 (edited) I suppose that each field office has its own way to do things. Thats good news for you though, looks like smooth sailing and I certainly would go for the manufacturers license. Also, in keeping with the theme of this thread, according to Danny Creagan, the Second Vice President of the PGI: DOT Position on Transport of Non-commercial Fireworks There were questions during the last few weeks about the DOT positionabout the transport of hobby fireworks from local hobby workshops tothe convention. While many are aware of the rules, there always seemsto be questions that arise. Like many electronic discussions (such asthis was) the fog of near truth tends to distort the real situation.The short answer is that DOT regulations do not apply to transport ofnot-in-commerce fireworks. Local and State regulations may apply.There are copies o: several letters from DOT representatives thatconfirm this on Dave Stoddard's site_ See: http://www.accelix.com/atf/ Remember: Even though you have an ATF license, if it is illegal to manufacture fireworks in your state, then you cannot manufacture fireworks there. Breaking state law with regards to explosives is also a federal crime. Nonetheless, you can still obtain an ATF license to manufacture as long as you have some place legal to travel to in order to manufacture. Stay Green, and Get Legal!Dave Stoddard -dag Edited June 28, 2011 by dagabu
Vrizla Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 (edited) Remember: Even though you have an ATF license, if it is illegal to manufacture fireworks in your state, then you cannot manufacture fireworks there. Breaking state law with regards to explosives is also a federal crime. Nonetheless, you can still obtain an ATF license to manufacture as long as you have some place legal to travel to in order to manufacture. Stay Green, and Get Legal!Dave Stoddard -dag I was under the impression that projects such as the ones in Turbo Pyro were legal to produce on the federal level without an ATF licence. The actual use of certain items such as aerials would be illegal for me to shoot in CT without a permit. I could be wrong and I'm sure that it varies by local cities and towns. I haven't read the intro to Turbo Pyro in a while, but it does touch on that subject. Edited June 29, 2011 by Vrizla
dagabu Posted June 29, 2011 Posted June 29, 2011 I was under the impression that projects such as the ones in Turbo Pyro were legal to produce on the federal level without an ATF licence. The actual use of certain items such as aerials would be illegal for me to shoot in CT without a permit. I could be wrong and I'm sure that it varies by local cities and towns. I haven't read the intro to Turbo Pyro in a while, but it does touch on that subject. No, let me be brutally honest about the definitions of 1.3g, if you make it (manufacture) or modify fireworks in any way (consumer fireworks) it is 1.3g and is subject to all applicable laws, period! The Turbo Pyro projects are legal ONLY from the perspective that according to FEDERAL law, you can make and use explosives on your own property. DOT takes over after it leaves your property until you stop, then its the ATF and then the DOT once you are moving on a road way again. State and local laws trump the federal laws if they are more restrictive and you can and will be subject to them all, including a felony charge if caught without the proper licenses and/or permits. If you make blackmatch, even one inch, it's 1.3g and restricted, subject to all laws concerning explosives. You made it, its 1.3g period. (Unless it is 1.1, like BP) -dag
NightHawkInLight Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) I was under the impression that projects such as the ones in Turbo Pyro were legal to produce on the federal level without an ATF licence. The actual use of certain items such as aerials would be illegal for me to shoot in CT without a permit. I could be wrong and I'm sure that it varies by local cities and towns. I haven't read the intro to Turbo Pyro in a while, but it does touch on that subject. Dag was not clear on one thing. It IS legal for you to make fireworks, and use those fireworks you have made on your own property without a license IF it is legal to use consumer fireworks freely in your State/local area. If it is not legal in your State to use fireworks but you make your own and use them, you are breaking the law and are subject to the consequences that typically come with using consumer fireworks, but not any federal crimes. You must also be aware however that the local authorities will make it as hard on you as they can if they find out you're making your own fireworks, as they will probably not know it's legal and therefore treat you like a criminal for as long as it takes for you to prove to their satisfaction you're not. Now just because according to federal regulation you can make fireworks legally on your own property doesn't mean you can't get in trouble on a federal level with how you go about making and using those fireworks. For example, as Dagabu said, you CANNOT transport those fireworks on a public roadway without a license. Doing so would be breaking federal regulation with both the ATF as well as DOT. You are also not permitted to keep the fireworks (or oxidized compositions, no matter how slowly they may burn) you make for more than 24 hours (24 hours is not written in the law, so that's even a bit shaky) before using them. Since everything you make is automatically 1.3 as Dag said, they are treated by the law as commercial explosives. It would be wise to keep proof of the time they were made. If kept for more than 24 hours they must be stored in an explosives magazine that meets ATF requirements. You best be sure it meets and exceeds them because they will inspect every detail. The last real issue you're likely to encounter is the issue of manufacturing vs making. In other words, are you going to be reimbursed whether by cash, service, favor, advertizing, anything at all for what you are making or the right to view it? If so your fireworks are entering commerce and you are legally considered a manufacturer of explosives. Without an explosives manufacturers license you're going to be in a world of trouble. Even a user permit from the ATF will not cover you there, which is why I am looking into a manufacturers. This is an aspect of the law that sometimes makes it difficult for an unlicensed member of fireworks clubs to have a licensed member transport their homemade fireworks to a shoot. The unlicensed member cannot legally even reimburse the licensed member for his gas money to transport the fireworks. Alright I lied, there's one more legal thing I can think of that came to my mind. If you have a licensed individual transport fireworks you have made to a pyro event or whatever, once that person takes possession of the fireworks they cannot return them to you. They are then like any other 1.3 firework, which cannot legally be given or sold to a person without a license. What that could mean for you is if you have someone transport your fireworks to a shoot and it gets rained out, they need to hold those fireworks in their own magazine until the next one. Both you and the licensed individual you ask to transport for you must be willing to take that route if it becomes necessary. Of course, the person with the license should already know that, and really so should you and anyone else who is building fireworks with or without a license. Here is the current US federal explosives regulation, read it from top to bottom, twice: http://www.accelix.com/atf/atf-orange-book.pdf Edited June 30, 2011 by NightHawkInLight
NightHawkInLight Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 (edited) Whoa Dag, wait a minute, I just noticed you said black powder is 1.1? Did you mean to write flash or is there something I've missed about how BP is classified? I couldn't find anything in the orange book about BP being 1.1, but I did find this: § 555.202 Classes of explosive materials.For purposes of this part, there are three classes of explosive materials. These classes, together with the description of explosive materials comprising each class, are as follows:(a) High explosives. Explosive materials which can be caused to detonate by means of a blasting cap when unconfined, (for example, dynamite, flash powders, and bulk salutes). See also §555.201(e).( Low explosives. Explosive materials which can be caused to deflagrate when confined (for example, black powder, safety fuses, igniters, igniter cords, fuse lighters, and “display fireworks” classified as UN0333, UN0334, or UN0335 by the U.S. Department of Transportation regulations at 49 CFR 172.101, except for bulk salutes).© Blasting agents. (For example, ammonium nitrate-fuel oil and certain water-gels (see also §555.11).[T.D. ATF–87, 46 FR 40384, Aug. 7, 1981, as amended by T.D. ATF–293, 55 FR 3722, Feb. 5, 1990; T.D. ATF–400, 63 FR 45003, Aug. 24, 1998] That does not state whether BP is 1.1 or not, but it is grouped right in with display fireworks and all other types of 1.3 low explosives. I've never even heard a rumor of BP being 1.1 Edited June 30, 2011 by NightHawkInLight
Mumbles Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 One caveat NHIL. That first part is only true if there are no state or local regulations with regard to manufacture of explosives. You only avoid the ire of the ATF by manufacturing and using your product on site. State and locals can have other regulations such as zoning requirements, licensing requirements that you cannot get out of, etc.
NightHawkInLight Posted June 30, 2011 Author Posted June 30, 2011 One caveat NHIL. That first part is only true if there are no state or local regulations with regard to manufacture of explosives. You only avoid the ire of the ATF by manufacturing and using your product on site. State and locals can have other regulations such as zoning requirements, licensing requirements that you cannot get out of, etc. Well that is true if you are actually manufacturing. But if you are making fireworks purely as a hobby with no ties to commerce you are not manufacturing anything and therefore not in violation of zoning in any circumstance I can think of. I don't know of any States that have their own licenses for making fireworks or explosives, but that certainly doesn't mean they couldn't exist. I would be interested to hear of any local laws about making fireworks. In any case, it would be extremely easy to find out if any are in existence on the State level by calling the nearest ATF branch.
Mumbles Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Wisconsin, Alabama, and Oregon have state manufacturing licenses for sure. Each state defines manufacturing differently. Several I've seen make no differentiation between manufacturing for profit and manufacturing for pleasure. If you were in WI, as I am, you would be completely outside the law manufacturing on your own property. You may want to check the laws. One of the biggest trip ups is in the firing of homemade product. Most states and local governments have display permits. While we know that one on a federal level may shoot the fireworks they manufacture on site without legal ramification, there is usually more stringent state and local laws. More often then not, to get around the need for a display permit to use fireworks you make, there is a requirement that it be part of a manufacturing venture. Thus if you're not defined as a manufacturer, you're not following local or state laws. Trust me, I've looked into this. Despite being regulated through the Department of Commerce, there is no legal definition in WI at least between manufacturing in or out of commerce, it is all the same in their eyes. Michigan is different as they haven't updated most of their laws in quite a long time. I've heard they're looking to revamp them at some point. That is more with regard as to what commercial items are allowed, but who knows what else they'll toss in there.
dagabu Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Whoa Dag, wait a minute, I just noticed you said black powder is 1.1? Did you mean to write flash or is there something I've missed about how BP is classified? I couldn't find anything in the orange book about BP being 1.1, but I did find this: That does not state whether BP is 1.1 or not, but it is grouped right in with display fireworks and all other types of 1.3 low explosives. I've never even heard a rumor of BP being 1.1 Yes, BP is 1.1D with special considerations for sporting use and use in fireworks etc. here is the GOEX MSDS card text for example. SHIPPING INFORMATIONProper shipping name Black powderHazard class 1.1DUN Number UN0027DOT Label & Placard DOT Label EXPLOSIVE 1.1DDOT Placard EXPLOSIVES 1.1Alternate shipping information Limited quantities of black powder may be transported as “Black powder for small arms”,NA0027, class 4.1 pursuant -dag
Vrizla Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 I forgot to include in my original post that I was talking about manufacturing on my own property for personal use. All of which state and local laws could be stricter depending on where you live. But it looks like i should re-read the orange book.
dagabu Posted June 30, 2011 Posted June 30, 2011 Dag was not clear on one thing. It IS legal for you to make fireworks, and use those fireworks you have made on your own property without a license IF it is legal to use consumer fireworks freely in your State/local area. Federally, this is a correct statement but in Minnesota, I need to have a license to make them. It's not hard to get one here, the Fire Marshall will show up with the ATF crew (usually two) to inspect manufacturing (a tent in a field) and the magazine (type four on a concrete slab at least 200' away from houses, roads, railroad works well here) and the state gets a copy of the ATF license and they issue you theirs at no cost to you and it lasts as long as the ATF license does. Locally, the Fire Marshall can say, "No freaking way! Not in MY city!". State and Federal license means nothing and I still have to build at another location that is allowed by the local authority or outside of local authority. The ability to use consumer fireworks here make no difference at all, without an EX number, anything I make is considered "OTHER" explosives and subject to those regulations. That is our process here in Minnesota, I have no knowledge about the Michigan laws and cannot comment on them. -dag
Vrizla Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 It's a good idea for anyone looking to get licensed to get to know their local Fire Marshal and department, even do a little volunteer work. Luckily for me my local department is very small and most of them are pyros. Not like us, they buy their stuff I don't think any of them are licensed, but they defiantly don't have any problems getting a class C display permit.
Algenco Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 It's a good idea for anyone looking to get licensed to get to know their local Fire Marshal and department, even do a little volunteer work. Luckily for me my local department is very small and most of them are pyros. Not like us, they buy their stuff I don't think any of them are licensed, but they defiantly don't have any problems getting a class C display permit. Fire Depts can purchase and shoot class b without a permit. The order has to be on the Dept letterhead and paid for with a check written on the dept
Vrizla Posted July 2, 2011 Posted July 2, 2011 Yea they definitely don't do that I live in a small town. The people I know in the fire department put on shows at their houses not as a company event, maybe that still qualifies? IDK?. I'm not bad mouthing them they are all good people. I was just saying who you know can get you a long way and letting them know that you are a responsible member of the community is also a good thing
NightHawkInLight Posted September 27, 2011 Author Posted September 27, 2011 A little update,Today I received a letter from the ATF headquarters saying my fingerprint card was declined by the FBI (apparently they do some of the legwork in the licensing process) because it was not done well enough for their systems. The ATF sent me another card which I'll have to take back to the police station and send back in to get the process started again. So anyway, just be sure that they take their time on your fingerprint card the first time around. Hopefully this doesn't delay things too badly.
busspuppy Posted September 27, 2011 Posted September 27, 2011 That sucks NHIL. Good luck. When I turn 21 I will start working on getting mine. Although I live in a urban city, so it will be a little bit of a challenge for me. My brother know several guys locally with there license so I at least have somebody to talk to that is in the same city. Maybe they will let me use there magazine. My club has a magazine I might be able to put down as a shared thing. Not sure what it is called. Well I have to go to class (I hate these night classes). Good luck again.
cogbarry Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Sorry to hear about the delay NHIL. I had my finger prints taken last year and then found out the card I used was not the exact card called for by the ATF. Guess I won't get away with it. I won't bother submitting my app until I know I have a good set. Thanks, you may have saved me from the same delay. I'm glad to see this thread, I've been planning to get my ATF license for a while now but like many, have been confused about the license type needed and exactly what the ATF required in terms of state and local compliance. I've read that the ATF may require that you have notified your local fire and police departments of your magazine and that you have permission from them to have it. I wanted to get the federal stuff done first. It seemed to me, I may have a better chance with my local authorities if I had my ATF license in hand. I'm still confused on this one after reading this thread (seems there's a lot of confusion on this one), maybe it varies from state to state? In any case, I joined a club and we are building a magazine. Once this is complete and has passed ATF and state inspection I will most likely resume the application process. I've decided to use the club's storage to get my license. I will try to get a mag at home added later although I don't know if I could ever be legal to manufacture at home. I think building on the picnic table in the back yard is subject to distance requirements from other buildings? This brings up another question, do they ask where you are manufacturing? Obviously, you can build at pyro events but does this come up for those getting their license with their own mags at home? I'm hoping someone can clarify another source of confusion regarding license types. Do you need a type 20 to make salutes if not in bulk? Do you need a license to make non bulk salutes at all? I am refering to federal law only and non commercial. Also, I am specifically refering to aerial salutes, not ground salutes although these are another source of confusion. I believe these are VERY illegal at both the federal level and in my state but have heard of no one getting in hot water for these at pyro events.
dagabu Posted September 29, 2011 Posted September 29, 2011 Do you need a type 20 to make salutes if not in bulk? Do you need a license to make non bulk salutes at all? I am refering to federal law only and non commercial. Also, I am specifically refering to aerial salutes, not ground salutes although these are another source of confusion. I believe these are VERY illegal at both the federal level and in my state but have heard of no one getting in hot water for these at pyro events. There is no longer a type 20 or type 54 license. http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5400-13.pdf Flash is a pyrotechnical composition and is subject to ATF rules that also pertain to fireworks with the addition of BULK reports and the max of 10# of flash in a manufacturing area. Ground salutes and M-80s are not the same, ground salutes are NOT placed on the ground, they are hung off the ground, M-80s are set on the ground. Bulk salutes (see the ATF for details) can be stored if they are "mixed" with color shells and at this time that means a single color shell in a case of salutes makes that case not bulk salutes. The ATF allows for explosives to be made and used on your property on the same day by federal ruling, this has NOTHING to do with state or local ordinances or laws. Flash is an explosive and therefore meets this requirement. -dag
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