The thread for posts unworthy of their own thread

[Mumbles]

We're going to have to get a terminology issue out of the way in the use of the term Polverone. To me, and many other canister shell builders, polverone is a granulated green meal used as a combustible filler. On larger shells, a corned BP or milled and granulated BP is used to fill the cannula in the center of the shell for the burst. Polverone is used to fill in among the spaces between the stars. It makes for rock solid shells, and excellent integrity.

 

Personally, I mill and granulate my own powder. I never found the hassle of pressing and corning to be worth it, despite in some very unscientific tests I've done showing corned powder to be more powerful. The amount of corned powder is smaller than you may think in a canister shell, but when you start building larger shells there begins to be a weight difference, and more importantly the powder in the core gets pretty large. I always round up my lift charges just to be safe, so any increase in weight of corned powder over granulated is probably negated for the most part. Plus if you have 4lbs of BP in a shell, an extra ounce isn't going to break the bank.

 

There is another method of building smaller shells, primarily for inserts, where the entire shell is filled with BP (corned or granulated). You fill the casing halfway with stars, and add some BP and tap to settle, add in another amount of stars, and more BP. With some practice you get good at judging how much of each you'll need to settle it level at the top of the shell. In this case the burst is just interspersed among the stars, instead of being contained in the center. It gives more of a splash of color, the stars don't fly as far. Here the amount of powder is small enough, that any difference in weight is almost negligible. With my granulated BP, I think it takes around a heaping tablespoon of BP for a 1.75" ID shell, which is 15-20g. For a harder break, adding in some flash or whistle is easy, though I really only do that for spider inserts, and very small shells.

 

This style would probably be a style fairly well suited to rocket headers if your rockets aren't all that large. I believe a 1lb BP rocket could maybe lift a 3" canister shell, which is about where I'd start using a cannula over just filling in among the stars with BP.

[stckmndn]

I use a cannula in my 3" headers. So far the 1 lb rocket has easily lifted up to a 250 gr payload. Next up will be a 300 gr payload.

 

I'm going to tweak my fuel making it hotter and test the limits of what my motors will lift.

[dagabu]

This style would probably be a style fairly well suited to rocket headers if your rockets aren't all that large. I believe a 1lb BP rocket could maybe lift a 3" canister shell, which is about where I'd start using a cannula over just filling in among the stars with BP.

 

I use a 3/4" cannula in my 3" canisters and they weight 400-500g when ready to attach to rockets. I just re-read the Fulcanelli Papers and see that I have exceeded the suggested height of canisters and will we coming back down to 1 ID in height to see if I get better breaks.

 

-dag

[stckmndn]

How are Grandmasters chosen? Is there a contest? Year end member vote? Just curious.

 

I've never been to an event before but look forward to joining the WPA in January and attending their two yearly shoots.

 

 

[Mumbles]

Grandmaster is a PGI thing in their competition. Based on difficulty of competition, and place achieved you get a set number of points. There is a selection rule such as best 2 scores from rockets, aerial shells, ground devices, and class C. There is a theoretical maximum of 260 points. Typically the winner has around 100-150. Who ever has the most points wins.

 

If you want to look more into it, you can browse the rule book. http://www.pgi.org/convention/2011/competition.aspx

[stckmndn]

Has anyone here competed in this competition? Even if just on a lark?

[Mumbles]

I've competed, and I know a few others here have as well. I was subject to the PGI curse, where my typically well functioning shells failed miserably. Oh well, I'm young and hopefully have many, many more PGI's ahead of me.

[stckmndn]

You know, that was a very enjoyable read. It was especially good for learning terminology.

 

I would love to watch one of those competetions with a scorecard, tedious though it may seem. PGI must be Disney for pyros.

[Mumbles]

If you want to watch some of them, this website sells videos of various pyro conventions and has several as sample videos.

 

http://www.secac.com/

 

The PGI website used to have results posted, so you could correlate names and devices with scores, but they seem to have not been put back up with the new website.

[dagabu]

You know, that was a very enjoyable read. It was especially good for learning terminology.

 

I would love to watch one of those competetions with a scorecard, tedious though it may seem. PGI must be Disney for pyros.

 

There was a class for people at PGI that taught them what the judges look for and why they score the items that way they do. Disney? Naw, it is a pyrorgasm! Imagine, 3.2 million 2" 1.3g fire crackers, hauled out to a 200' crane on the shoulders of hundreds of volunteers. Imagine sitting down and working with the guy that formed the very first pyro club in the US.

 

It takes a good week to wipe that silly smile off your face after your first convention... as long as it is not Appleton Wisconsin.

 

-dag

[stckmndn]

Hey, I'm smiling and I've never even been there. What a blast it must be.

[stckmndn]

What's a good way to load flying fish fuse in a canister rocket header if you only want one side of the fuse to light?

[dagabu]

Fire block one end with Elmers glue and prime the other end with BP and NCL.

 

-dag

[TigerTail]

I have some questions regarding ball mill jars.

 

1) When making a 4" PVC jar, is there any specific purpose for a 4" to 3" reducer(coupling?)? Why not simply use a 4" cap?

 

2) What are the most popular lift bars and how are they attached?

 

Thanks.

[Vrizla]

I felt like an amateur pyro using store bought BP for lift on occasion. Did I misread or do you do as well occasionally Dag? I also thought I was fairly knowledgeable about making black powder until I recently read several posts from experienced professional members of this forum. How does the dextrin slow down the powder when granulating it speed it up?

 

Tiger Tail there are many threads hear and other sites showing schematics of how to build a ball bill. I started to build one about a year ago and never finished it, the only thing it's missing is a pulley an the jar. I didn't follow any specific plans I just know what each piece is supposed to do. I don't wan't to re-start the can static electricity ignite BP debate, but I know for sure that PVC generates static very easily. If you go to pyro creations they tell you how to build a mill and suggest using PVC but also warn about the static. So you may want to buy a jar or find another material to use. Maybe the 4 to 3" just fits the specific design that you are using or possibly to aid in emptying the jar after milling.

Edited July 3, 2011 by Vrizla

[Vrizla]

Holy Mother of The Pyro Gods what I thought was not so good BP I think is better then last years once the lift powder granules and meal dried it was killer fast and hot. Some of my new black match is still a little damp after 3 days but it was still lightning fast. I don't feel as ignorant as I thought I was. I still need to find a good black powder book to read. But for those with out a ball mill have faith it can be done via wet mix then screen. Stick with the standard formula.

[Peret]

I felt like an amateur pyro using store bought BP for lift on occasion.

Don't worry, I used nothing but store-bought Goex to lift my shells for a long time. I figured the time and effort that went into the shell far outweighed the small cost of the lift and it was worth it to have confidence that the lift would do the job right every time. Besides, it's totally "professional" to do this, since the pros all use commercial 2FA.

[dagabu]

Don't worry, I used nothing but store-bought Goex to lift my shells for a long time. I figured the time and effort that went into the shell far outweighed the small cost of the lift and it was worth it to have confidence that the lift would do the job right every time. Besides, it's totally "professional" to do this, since the pros all use commercial 2FA.

 

Really? You mean "commercial" right?

 

-dag

[Peret]

Really? You mean "commercial" right?

I really don't know. If "2FA" is the correct description, then by definition it's commercial, since home made powder wouldn't have an "A" or "G" category. If they actually mean "powder equivalent to 2FA in size but that we made ourselves" then they should be more specific, to avoid confusing us amateurs. But I understand there's a certain status attached to being able to purchase 2FA so perhaps that's the reason the term is so popular.

[Mumbles]

The reducer is probably just an artifact from the reduction in size from the original design. The originally "Sponnen" jar is 6" in diameter, and the 6" caps are probably harder to find or expensive. The rubber caps are also held on with a hose clamp, so you'd need some clearance for the screw part otherwise it'd hit the rollers.

[dagabu]

I really don't know. If "2FA" is the correct description, then by definition it's commercial, since home made powder wouldn't have an "A" or "G" category. If they actually mean "powder equivalent to 2FA in size but that we made ourselves" then they should be more specific, to avoid confusing us amateurs. But I understand there's a certain status attached to being able to purchase 2FA so perhaps that's the reason the term is so popular.

 

I disagree, the terms are not a commercial designator, they are simply a black powder grade with the A grade being clean grains with no graphite and G grades having been tumbled with graphite to both inhibit the burn and to allow it to flow better. There is no reason that the hobbyist should not use the commercial references, use of the accepted grain sizing makes for better overall performance when referring to lift or break amongst other uses.

 

Your statement is a lot like saying that the use of millimeters or inches is a commercial measuring system and we should make measurements based on thumbnails or some other ambiguous measurement that would be referred as "measurement equivalent to millimeters in size but that we made ourselves".

 

Stay with the A designator please, we dont need any more confusing information then we already have going around about pyro.

 

As far as "status attached to being able to purchase 2FA" is bunk, if you are 18 years old in the USA, one call to any one of a hundred resellers will get you 50# of FFA delivered to you in a month. The term is popular because it is the correct term, nothing else.

 

-dag

[Vrizla]

Dag do you use Goex at all? I ran out of home made lift yesterday I miscalculated the amount I needed to fill all my lift cups. I had to use Pyrodex from my friend after we exhausted his Goex. Pyrodex worked well but I would not waste my money on it. Goex performed the best then my lift then Pyrodex. Nail board worked like a charm running off 9 volt battery. Electric match 100% success. Some of them only had hot mix on them then dipped nitrocellulose lacquer . In fact they worked so well I question the need for second coat of H3. Does anyone else just use hot mix then top coat with NCL to protect match heads from accidental ignition from friction. Quick match performed just as good as commercial product. The only thing I would do differently is build the machine on this site to fold match pipe. What a PITA to do at last minute. Has anyone put wet black match into pipe and let dry? Would that effect the performance? The video posted by Sidewinder looks like he is using commercial fast visco and white lightning. Edited July 5, 2011 by Vrizla

[dagabu]

Dag do you use Goex at all? I ran out of home made lift yesterday I miscalculated the amount I needed to fill all my lift cups. I had to use Pyrodex from my friend after we exhausted his Goex. Pyrodex worked well but I would not waste my money on it. Goex performed the best then my lift then Pyrodex. Nail board worked like a charm running off 9 volt battery. Electric match 100% success. Some of them only had hot mix on them then dipped nitrocellulose lacquer . In fact they worked so well I question the need for second coat of H3. Does anyone else just use hot mix then top coat with NCL to protect match heads from accidental ignition from friction. Quick match performed just as good as commercial product. The only thing I would do differently is build the machine on this site to fold match pipe. What a PITA to do at last minute. Has anyone put wet black match into pipe and let dry? Would that effect the performance? The video posted by Sidewinder looks like he is using commercial fast visco and white lightning.

 

I use Goex and Pyrodex in my muzzleloader, never for pyro. With the prices of raw chemicals, I doubt that I will ever buy it again. In fact, it costs $1.00 a pound for 116 Fuse powder which is a little slower then Meal-D but not a whole bunch. I use it for an overcoat on black match, BP rockets (almost exactly the same as the popular homemade BP for rockets) lifting comets and inserts in cakes, they lift just as far in little shells but with less thump.

 

I did make a bunch of "wet" black match early on but it stuck to the kraft and didn't burn at a rate that I thought was acceptable. Where it stuck hard to the paper, it burned at visco speed.

 

I found that if I could get the black match out 100' feet (and drag it across the ground) it would be dry enough to pipe but that was just not practical. The best way I have found is to hank 200' of string, kneed in the BP slurry, wind it on a frame, cut the 4' lengths off and store them in a PVC tube (I know, I know) for storage. I just push them down pipe when I need QM but most of it is for cross match or for passfires.

 

-dag

[stckmndn]

Can anyone tell me about the stars used in this mine? The video is in the lower right hand corner. It's from Wichita Buggy Whip. Interesting Effect

 

Thanks.

[Algenco]

Can anyone tell me about the stars used in this mine? The video is in the lower right hand corner. It's from Wichita Buggy Whip. Interesting Effect

 

Thanks.

 

 

crackle/Dragon eggs