usapyro Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 (edited) Mumbles helped me find some Butvar B-76 resin (88% PVB) which I am going to try out since I couldn't find a legit seller of Mowital(PVB Powder).http://apps.webcreat...ProductID=17099I am also kind of confused... There is also a different type of Butvar, but it contains only 80% PVB... I would assume the B-76 is what I want because it's 88%. However, this type is more expensive which leads me to think it's better...http://apps.webcreat...ProductID=17103 I was looking around and there are more alcohol soluble binders out there. Another one I glanced at was Ethulose.http://apps.webcreat...ProductID=21192"Ethyl Hydroxyethyl Cellulose, which forms a flexible film adhesive. A 4% solution in water has a honey-like consistency, an 8-10% solution is a non-flowing gel (let solution stand for 24 hours before use). This product may also be dissolved in alcohol to produce solutions where water is not desirable. Ethulose does not support the growth of bacteria or mold." I have heard the problem with Red Gum as a glitter binder is that it's a chlorine donor. All that can be used for glitters is non chlorine donors as far as I know. So my question is... Any chemists out there know if this stuff might also be a good idea to test, or if there are additional alcohol binders I have not heard of? Edited June 9, 2011 by usapyro
WSM Posted June 9, 2011 Posted June 9, 2011 Red gum is not a chlorine donor. It is a fuel and is often used in color compositions for just that reason. I've also seen red gum used in certain whistle mixes. WSM
Seymour Posted June 10, 2011 Posted June 10, 2011 (edited) There are lots of alcohol and/or acetone binders that you appear not to have heard of. Besides what you've already mentioned, there's Shellac, Resinox,(a phenolic resin) Lac resin, ABS Nitrocellulose, and if you want to look, hundreds more are out there... You could start picking synthetic resins at random and many will work. Yes, it is a good idea to test Ethulose and PVB. I like tests, but remember, even if it works really well, that does not make it useful if that other compound is just as good at 1/4 the cost, or easier availability ect. A question I do have though, is why you are so keen to use non-water binders so much in glitters, where standard binders (Dextrin, SGRS, Wallpaper paste, Gum Arabic, all in water) work perfectly? If you are hoping to avoid nitrate-Aluminium reactions, you might be pleased to find that they are not nearly as bad as you may have heard in the presence of water, ESPECIALLY with the large Aluminium (comparatively) that we use in glitters. Edited June 10, 2011 by Seymour
Ralph Posted June 11, 2011 Posted June 11, 2011 its also worth noting that using other binders in glitters tends to kill them I found that out the hard way trying to use red gum and NC on different occasions trying to make stars in a hurry
usapyro Posted June 11, 2011 Author Posted June 11, 2011 (edited) There are lots of alcohol and/or acetone binders that you appear not to have heard of. Besides what you've already mentioned, there's Shellac, Resinox,(a phenolic resin) Lac resin, ABS Nitrocellulose, and if you want to look, hundreds more are out there... You could start picking synthetic resins at random and many will work. Yes, it is a good idea to test Ethulose and PVB. I like tests, but remember, even if it works really well, that does not make it useful if that other compound is just as good at 1/4 the cost, or easier availability ect. A question I do have though, is why you are so keen to use non-water binders so much in glitters, where standard binders (Dextrin, SGRS, Wallpaper paste, Gum Arabic, all in water) work perfectly? If you are hoping to avoid nitrate-Aluminium reactions, you might be pleased to find that they are not nearly as bad as you may have heard in the presence of water, ESPECIALLY with the large Aluminium (comparatively) that we use in glitters. Try to get D1 or any glitter to dry in less than two weeks with a water binder... Above a half inch star size... It ain't happening... Simple as that. My latest big batch of D1 has been drying a week and is only dry to 1/8th of an inch inward... LOL! No ammonia reaction though. I would know because it's sealed in a bag with tons of calcium chloride. Stuff outside the bag is about the same... It was only wetted just enough and pressed. I don't have the patience for this... Going to get my Butvar(PVB) and hammer these things dry in one night with a 150F food dryer... Woot! It's what I use to get my dragon eggs and colored stars done within hours... Edited June 11, 2011 by usapyro
usapyro Posted June 11, 2011 Author Posted June 11, 2011 (edited) If you are hoping to avoid nitrate-Aluminium reactions, you might be pleased to find that they are not nearly as bad as you may have heard in the presence of water, ESPECIALLY with the large Aluminium (comparatively) that we use in glitters. They are horrible when trying to dry stars at 140-210F... I'm really starting to really like Acetone... It allows you to dry stars in the sun in a matter of hours... And primes are dry enough within the hour. That is the kind of speed I am looking for!!! Ethanol is pretty fast as long as you get things upto around 150F with a vented food dryer. (One that sends heated air in and vents the air with moisture/fumes out the other side. Edit: Accidental double post. Hit quote of my own post instead of edit... LoL! Edited June 11, 2011 by usapyro
Carbon796 Posted June 11, 2011 Posted June 11, 2011 Try to get D1 or any glitter to dry in less than two weeks with a water binder... Above a half inch star size... It ain't happening... Simple as that. My latest big batch of D1 has been drying a week and is only dry to 1/8th of an inch inward... LOL! No ammonia reaction though. I would know because it's sealed in a bag with tons of calcium chloride. Stuff outside the bag is about the same... It was only wetted just enough and pressed. I don't have the patience for this... Going to get my Butvar(PVB) and hammer these things dry in one night with a 150F food dryer... Woot! It's what I use to get my dragon eggs and colored stars done within hours... What percentage of water are you using in your glitter stars? My 1" glitter comets are dry enough to shoot in less than three days, usually two days is fine. Using SGRS and water.
usapyro Posted June 11, 2011 Author Posted June 11, 2011 (edited) What percentage of water are you using in your glitter stars? My 1" glitter comets are dry enough to shoot in less than three days, usually two days is fine. Using SGRS and water. I have no idea... I just mist them until the powder will compact and hold together in my hand at all... Then I compress them hardcore with a makeshift type of star press. They sound like rocks when knocked against anything. Maybe the insane compression is the problem? Maybe I should put the mix on a scale and weight it as I am spraying. What percentage should I wet them? I use 90/10 Water/Alc with 2% Boric Edited June 11, 2011 by usapyro
Seymour Posted June 11, 2011 Posted June 11, 2011 D1 was recommended to have no more than 8% water by the creator. Many people use a lot more, but 8% is fine.
Siegmund Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 its also worth noting that using other binders in glitters tends to kill them I found that out the hard way trying to use red gum and NC on different occasions trying to make stars in a hurry Does anybody have any details on which glitters are killed by which binders? Last fall my Winokur 19 survived having a little parlon added to it so it could be bound with acetone, after it got to be the time of year that stuff outside was freezing at night at my place. I now have Sb2S3 and am planning to explore a few more on the famous list of 40, and am faced with the "be patient for a week, or bind them with a fast-drying solvent and try em tomorrow" dilemma...hehe...
Bonny Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Try to get D1 or any glitter to dry in less than two weeks with a water binder... I don't have the patience for this... I've never had any issues with glitters taking very long to dry. Maybe you are causing the problem by trying to force dry, leading to "driven in" stars. If you don't have the patience, try planning better or find another hobby. Pyro is not something that should be rushed. Taking your time leads to less carelessness and/or mistakes. Also, as recommended water for D1 is ~8%, IF you are pressing them so hard you should need even less. When you mix your comps do you wait awhile before pressing them? I usually knead/mix when dampening to distribute the water, and then wait 15-30 minutes before kneading again and then making a patty or pumping.
Mumbles Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 With a drying box they can be made in a few days. I give all stars at least 12-24hr to dry naturally before placing them in a dryer. This prevents many problems such as metal attacks I had experienced while trying to get everything figured out. Glitters are one I typically gave at least a day. A few other formulas such as Independence tangerine, and a yellow I developed seemed to be more sensitive to early drying and would often swell and form a cavity in the center of the star. All of these mentioned are cut stars. I know it can be annoying, but patience really is a virtue. I know it can be done with non-aqueous binders, but I really haven't an idea how. Glitters are typically one of the trickier effects to do.
Mumbles Posted June 21, 2011 Posted June 21, 2011 Usapyro, have you ever considered using a heater below say 140F? I've always had good luck with 85-100F, and MOVING air. Desiccants, just like force drying and placing in the sun, can still cause all the driven in problems, which it sounds like you're experiencing. Desiccants are really more designed for keeping things dry, not actively drying them. You guys will call me crazy, but Calcium Chloride is actually not all that great of a desiccant with regards to ultimate dryness, but it does work fast which may be where you're having issues. A ceramic heater and plastic box are really quite efficient. Pretty much anything but large comets can be dried within 24hr. http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/drying-chamber.asp As for alternative binders, I found this quote on passfire today. It's from pretty much the best resource on phenolic resins they have, as he is an owner/manager of a chinese and spanish firework company (allegedly). "I only use water/dextrin or sgrs for willows, brocades, glitters and few more. " I'm not saying it can't be done, but glitters are so fickle. Things such as drying time, amount of original water, star type, etc all can have dramatic effects on the performance. Please keep us informed on your experiments. I bet charcoal streamers can be figured out, but the others may take some tweaking.
garyrapp55 Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 I can't help but notice that alcohol/acetone are nearly referred to as the same thing here. Does this mean I can use alcohol in place of acetone? If so, this would make my day, as I get alcohol free and pay for acetone. Gary
Mumbles Posted July 23, 2011 Posted July 23, 2011 It depends on the use. A lot of things are activated by both such as red gum, and many other resins presumably shellac and the phenolic types. A notable exception is parlon which will not be activated by alcohol. Mixing alcohol with the acetone does actually make it less stringy however. Nitrocellulose is yet another example. A mixture of a variety of solvents do work, which include alcohol. It is not a solvent, but it can "stretch" the real solvents.
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