The best "flowing" hot thermite.

[usapyro]

My previous attempt to make thermite a long time ago just ended up in a cato... CuO/Al I think... LoL! I just assumed my powders were too fine and didn't bother with it again.

 

What type of thermite is that stuff you see on Tv made out of? The kind that flows through things and stuff...

[madmandotcom]

that stuff is iron oxide and aluminum

[usapyro]

that stuff is iron oxide and aluminum

 

Red iron oxide or black? I was looking at the iron oxide formulas but couldn't find any information about the type of iron oxides and their different effects. I don't care to go out and buy a bunch of the wrong type of iron oxide.

 

There is also the possibility that the glass thermites might be more "flowing." Dunno... I want a thermite that can flow a long ways over say a rock for effect.

 

There is also the problem of powder size... The commercial thermite I have seen uses a very rough grain. Maybe that helps the reaction go for a longer time like in most pyrotechnics? Maybe compressing the powder and burning it outward from a central core will help? Need a thermite expert around here...

Edited June 8, 2011 by usapyro

[oldmanbeefjerky]

im no thermite expert, but i am a chemical physicist in training!

 

i myslef have made thermite before, and only in a very small batch, perhaps 5 tablespoons worth. this was after i had made my first ever batch of aluminium powder using my Lego ball mill.

anyway, my thermite was quite runny, and at the time, i was in such a rush that instead of making a small plaster mould, to cast the molten iron in, i just dug a small hole in the dirt.

 

after the combustion was over, i poked a metal rod into it, and it behaved exactly like molten lead or solder, until it hardend. so mine was quite runny.

 

i had used red iron oxide, as red iron oxide, is actually a mild oxidizing agent, but very mild.

in the presence of a reducing agent , at high tempuratures, it will give up its oxygen, and reform into black iron oxide.

 

3Fe2O3 + x --> 2Fe3O4 +xO

the red iron oxide goes from having 1.5 oxygen's per iron, to having 0.75 oxygen's per iron.

 

aluminium though is such a strong reducing agent that as soon as it releases one oxygen, it takes all the rest as the temperature has become so high.

 

aluminium becomes more reactive the finer it is. to some extent, its even possible to get it so fine, that in a high oxygen environment, if thrown into the air, will rapidly oxidize so quickly that it will combust! , this is something i have heard can sometimes happen when opening ball mills after milling aluminium powder.

its unlikely that your powder was too fine, the finer the better.

 

in comercial grade thermite, they often use a mixture of both coarse and fine thermite, to save money, as the extreme temperatures made by the finer thermite cause the cause slightly finer than sand, aluminium and red iron oxide mixture to combust, and the aluminium to start reducing, as is possible is large batches, but only when tempuratures go the around 3000-4000C as ive heard., though these prills may just be as a safety precaution to prevent dust spillage, as the aluminium is so fine it can seep though any hole or gap that water could.

when i say the prills are a safety precaution, i mean they are are regular thermite, thats been granulated by a binding agent such as dextrin or some form of organic rubber.

 

 

 

in short.

 

use red iron oxide, it burns the thermite faster, and hotter, which means runnier thermite.

more finer reactive aluminium means hotter burn meaning runnier thermite

the cooler the thermite, the grittier the molten iron, and less runnier it becomes.

[mabuse00]

Red Iron Oxide is standard and easy to get.

And yes, if you don't want the hot metal to get thrown around you should use rather large aluminium, >100µm. Atomized, spheroidal or granules, no flakes.

 

To light it you put some stuff with fine flake aluminium on top.

[usapyro]

in short.

 

use red iron oxide, it burns the thermite faster, and hotter, which means runnier thermite.

more finer reactive aluminium means hotter burn meaning runnier thermite

the cooler the thermite, the grittier the molten iron, and less runnier it becomes.

 

Awesome... Great information. Pretty impressive your ball-milled AL worked that good. Is red iron oxide thermite the hottest thermite that is possible? I am thinking of trying to light ALICE fuel with it too...

 

Re: Mabuse, how do you convert those units to mesh size? I assume that that is microns... 105 microns is 140 mesh. So it seems like around a 100 mesh atomized Al should work good.

[dagabu]

Awesome... Great information. Pretty impressive your ball-milled AL worked that good. Is red iron oxide thermite the hottest thermite that is possible? I am thinking of trying to light ALICE fuel with it too...

 

Re: Mabuse, how do you convert those units to mesh size? I assume that that is microns... 105 microns is 140 mesh. So it seems like around a 100 mesh atomized Al should work good.

 

Thermite is tricky to use as an igniter as it drips quickly away from the initiator.

 

-dag

[mabuse00]

I assume that that is microns... 105 microns is 140 mesh. So it seems like around a 100 mesh atomized Al should work good.

Right.

 

Thermite is tricky to use as an igniter as it drips quickly away from the initiator.

For my last thermite experiments I used 5-10g made with 5µm flake and wrapped it in aluminium foil. Looks like a little "cherry bomb".

I buried this thing 10mm deep in my thermite. No failures yet. A little plaster torch also ignited instantly.

[dagabu]

For my last thermite experiments I used 5-10g made with 5µm flake and wrapped it in aluminium foil. Looks like a little "cherry bomb".

I buried this thing 10mm deep in my thermite. No failures yet. A little plaster torch also ignited instantly.

 

No, I meant for rockets.

 

-dag

[Mumbles]

If you're going to be a chemical physicist, you may want to check some of that chemistry.

 

First and foremost black iron oxide is FeO, Iron (II). Fe3O4 is magnetite, a spinel complex, though typically dark red or black as well. While the reaction you proposed works on some basic level, there are better ways to intentionally make Iron (II) Oxide and Magnetite. You may want to check the math on the number of oxygens per iron atom as well. It looks like you did the division backwards.

 

For a good molten iron flow, I'd avoid overly fine Aluminum, and overly coarse aluminum. Too fine and it sprays instead of forms molten iron. Too coarse and it shoots out unreacted particles, and leaves you with rather low quality iron. Something in the 100-200 mesh atomized range sounds pretty good to me. Perhaps a coarser glitter type Al may be suitable. Red iron oxide will likely burn the most vigorously. If you get too much spray, or it is too violent, you may want to try magnetite instead. It reacts a bit more gently. I'd also use an aluminum foil or tape dam in your form. You want your reaction good and going before funneling away the molten iron.

[FrankRizzo]

I've always used the 90/10 aluminum blend from Firefox, and black iron oxide (magnetite) from the local ceramic supply house with good success. The trick to maintaining the liquid iron is to use a ceramic crucible (flower pots work well) to contain the mixture as it's reacting and keep the heat contained. You can also cover the crucible with a chunk of fiberglass insulation to further contain the heat and sparks.

 

This has been said before, but make sure to form a hollow in the center of the mix to channel the molten metal (a 3/4" OD paper tube made from a few wraps of 20lb paper works well). I also use a disc made from an aluminum can to cover the exit hole in the crucible to keep the the molten metal contained for a bit. I used paper or masking tape previously, but found that the extra containment time offered by the aluminum disc helped separate the denser molten iron from the aluminum oxide slag.

 

My previous attempt to make thermite a long time ago just ended up in a cato... CuO/Al I think... LoL! I just assumed my powders were too fine and didn't bother with it again.

 

What type of thermite is that stuff you see on Tv made out of? The kind that flows through things and stuff...

 

Remember that what you see on TV is not necessarily how things work in real life. Claims of thermite's destructive potential are highly exaggerated. Thermic lances however....

Edited June 8, 2011 by FrankRizzo

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Awesome... Great information. Pretty impressive your ball-milled AL worked that good. Is red iron oxide thermite the hottest thermite that is possible? I am thinking of trying to light ALICE fuel with it too...

 

Re: Mabuse, how do you convert those units to mesh size? I assume that that is microns... 105 microns is 140 mesh. So it seems like around a 100 mesh atomized Al should work good.

 

 

the hottest that is practical to use, there are other iron oxides that have oxidizing properties identical to potassium nitrate, but they are unstable and expensive and should not be worried about.

so yes, it is.

[qwezxc12]

...there are other iron oxides that have oxidizing properties identical to potassium nitrate, but they are unstable and expensive and should not be worried about.

 

??? What? I have no idea what you are trying to say here... I have never encounterd "unstable" Iron Oxide. Please explain.

 

 

As far as "hotest" thermite, here are some data points:

 

Red iron oxide & aluminum ("classic" thermite)

 

Fe₂O₃+ 2 Al -> Al₂O₃+ 2 Fe

 

Δh = -3.98 kJ/gram.

 

 

Red Iron Oxide and Mg is slightly hotter with a greater heat of reaction per gram of thermite.

 

Fe₂O₃+3 Mg -> 3 MgO+ 2 Fe

 

Δh (change in enthalpy) = -4.21 kJ/gram.

 

 

Manganese Dioxide & Magnesium is one of the hotter non-exotic thermites, but not nearly as cheap or practical as Iron Oxide and Al.:

 

MnO₂ + 2 Mg -> 2 MgO + Mn

 

Δh = -4.98 kJ/gram.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2011 by qwezxc12

[usapyro]

 

Red Iron Oxide and Mg is slightly hotter with a greater heat of reaction per gram of thermite.

 

Fe₂O₃+3 Mg -> 3 MgO+ 2 Fe

 

Δh (change in enthalpy) = -4.21 kJ/gram.

 

 

 

Manganese Dioxide & Magnesium is one of the hotter non-exotic thermites, but not nearly as cheap or practical as Iron Oxide and Al.:

 

MnO₂ + 2 Mg -> 2 MgO + Mn

 

Δh = -4.98 kJ/gram.

 

Woah, thats hot... I found a supplier for 60-80 mesh manganese dioxide. I already have some fine Mg. Any idea how these behave? Explosive or more flowing? This second one might be just the ticket for proper ignition of ALICE...

[oldmanbeefjerky]

Woah, thats hot... I found a supplier for 60-80 mesh manganese dioxide. I already have some fine Mg. Any idea how these behave? Explosive or more flowing? This second one might be just the ticket for proper ignition of ALICE...

 

try massive plumes of toxic gasses and toxic dust!

manganese is generally all round poisonous, and impractical. if your gonna go all out, go and buy some silicon dioxide and titanium dioxide for some seriously cool results. im not sure of the exact formula, but i know there is silicon thermite.

manganese however , would result in something like this

the link is from a video that pops up when you type manganese thermite in google.

keep in mind that fine manganese rises up into the air with ease, and if inhaled, is carcinogenic i believe, meaning it will displace certain chemicals in your dna, causing deformations , and thus causing cancer

 

 

also, there are forms of everything.

what i was saying was rhetorical , for instance, there are nitrates that are like knO6, which can only exist for a brief moment before disappearing. these can only be specially made my manually melding atoms together using super complex machinery ect.

not something the average hobbiest is capable, or even the average scientist / physicist !

 

 

however, if you want a gushing river of molten metal, that looks like lava, but you dont care much for burning properties (a slightly cooler thermite), i would go with a combination of these thermites.

lead monoxide or dioxide aluminium thermite 4 parts

copper oxide aluminium 2 parts

red iron oxide aluminium 3 parts

zinc and sulfur sulfur (for a melt that will glow for weeks after its cooled down) 2 parts

 

all however must be divided prior to burning, and you should find the recommended quantities of oxide/ aluminium ratio for each.

so section off each by placing in a paper bag or something, or cotton barrier.

 

you can try mixing them all together, but i don't know whatle happen, in terms of released vapoures.

 

the molten lead will gush like water at the temperatures produced, the iron oxide thermite will be the hottest, and will keep the otheres heated longer, the silicon will leave behind silicon, and should float ontop of the melt and loom awsome, the copper will leave behind copper and the zinc and sulfur will lower combustion temperatures, and also it will make zinc sulfide which glows in the dark. the zinc sulfide however will not activate until it comes in contact with copper, so at least sprinkle a little copper in there.

 

however you'll need a second opinion in terms of combining the lot together

Edited June 10, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[qwezxc12]

however, if you want a gushing river of molten metal, that looks like lava, but you dont care much for burning properties (a slightly cooler thermite), i would go with a combination of these thermites.

lead monoxide or dioxide aluminium thermite 4 parts

copper oxide aluminium 2 parts

red iron oxide aluminium 3 parts

zinc and sulfur sulfur (for a melt that will glow for weeks after its cooled down) 2 parts

 

all however must be divided prior to burning, and you should find the recommended quantities of oxide/ aluminium ratio for each.

so section off each by placing in a paper bag or something, or cotton barrier.

 

you can try mixing them all together, but i don't know whatle happen, in terms of released vapoures.

 

the molten lead will gush like water at the temperatures produced, the iron oxide thermite will be the hottest, and will keep the otheres heated longer, the silicon will leave behind silicon, and should float ontop of the melt and loom awsome, the copper will leave behind copper and the zinc and sulfur will lower combustion temperatures, and also it will make zinc sulfide which glows in the dark. the zinc sulfide however will not activate until it comes in contact with copper, so at least sprinkle a little copper in there.

 

however you'll need a second opinion in terms of combining the lot together

 

Have you actually done any of this? A serious note of warning and an observation to the OP and others:

 

1) Copper Oxide thermite is violently explosive if fine enough Al (flake or atomized) and commonly available ceramic grade CuO is used. People use it for exploding targets - there is a thread here and plenty of Youtube vids to that effect. You've just told people to mix in in the middle of two other thermites without specifying any precautions on material or safety. You want to know what happens when CuO thermite ignites in proximity to Fe₂O₃ thermite? It blows white-hot iron everywhere; see the attached video for a purpose built mine that does just that... Just mixing it in with a bunch of other random molten metal is a BAD idea, unless you have taken precautions and know what to expect.

 

2) SiO₂ thermite will not self-perpetuate without boosting, either with an oxidizer or additional Al/S, and will not typically render elemental Si without using some sort of fluxing agent, like Cryolite or Fluorspar.

 

For those who would like a fairly comprehensive thermite info source, check out Amazing rust.com. Here is a link to their thermite page. They have pics, videos and data for several thermite reactions.

 

...and this may get me flamed, but your spelling, grammar, and punctuation wouldn't pass a third grade test. Pyrotechnics is not the place for rambled together directions on how to make dubious mixtures. Please take more time when offering advice to others.

[NightHawkInLight]

Qw, I'm very interested in replicating the effect in your video. Can you provide some details regarding the construction of the mine as well as the composition? Looked more or less like a soup can creamora.

[qwezxc12]

Qw, I'm very interested in replicating the effect in your video. Can you provide some details regarding the construction of the mine as well as the composition? Looked more or less like a soup can creamora.

 

 

I used a 3" dia x 6" long black steel pipe nipple and endcap on the bottom to make a mortar that wouldn't melt and possibly spray molten iron out instead of up. I used a bunch in a display. The effect at night is really cool... as long as you have enough safety area around them. I listed the details back in 2006... wow, that's a while ago.

 

Link to Thermite thread

[Mumbles]

You really should check your facts before randomly spouting off mostly erroneous information. As others have mentioned, you may want to pay a bit more attention to spelling/grammar/etc. It takes even more credibility away from your posts than is already lost from just posting crap.

 

 

try massive plumes of toxic gasses and toxic dust!

manganese is generally all round poisonous, and impractical. if your gonna go all out, go and buy some silicon dioxide and titanium dioxide for some seriously cool results. im not sure of the exact formula, but i know there is silicon thermite.

manganese however , would result in something like this

the link is from a video that pops up when you type manganese thermite in google.

keep in mind that fine manganese rises up into the air with ease, and if inhaled, is carcinogenic i believe, meaning it will displace certain chemicals in your dna, causing deformations , and thus causing cancer

 

Lets see, where to start. Manganese is an essential nutrient for animal growth. Just like every other substance on earth (for the most part) too much of anything is not good for you. No one is recommending inhaling any pyrotechnic smoke. You may also want to look at what carcinogenic means, and perhaps spend 5 minutes on Google looking up if it actually is carcinogenic. qwezxc already covered those other thermites.

 

also, there are forms of everything.

what i was saying was rhetorical , for instance, there are nitrates that are like knO6, which can only exist for a brief moment before disappearing. these can only be specially made my manually melding atoms together using super complex machinery ect.

not something the average hobbiest is capable, or even the average scientist / physicist !

 

I'd love to see any reference or information on this mythical NO6(-) ion. They have to be detected somehow. In any case, that would definitely not be a nitrate anymore. Also, please inform us of this iron oxide that has the same oxidizing properties as potassium nitrate. I am seriously interested. Even if I do not have the means to make it, I would like to read about it. If you're just making stuff up, I really suggest you quit talking out of your ass.

 

however, if you want a gushing river of molten metal, that looks like lava, but you dont care much for burning properties (a slightly cooler thermite), i would go with a combination of these thermites.

lead monoxide or dioxide aluminium thermite 4 parts

copper oxide aluminium 2 parts

red iron oxide aluminium 3 parts

zinc and sulfur sulfur (for a melt that will glow for weeks after its cooled down) 2 parts

 

all however must be divided prior to burning, and you should find the recommended quantities of oxide/ aluminium ratio for each.

so section off each by placing in a paper bag or something, or cotton barrier.

 

you can try mixing them all together, but i don't know whatle happen, in terms of released vapoures.

 

the molten lead will gush like water at the temperatures produced, the iron oxide thermite will be the hottest, and will keep the otheres heated longer, the silicon will leave behind silicon, and should float ontop of the melt and loom awsome, the copper will leave behind copper and the zinc and sulfur will lower combustion temperatures, and also it will make zinc sulfide which glows in the dark. the zinc sulfide however will not activate until it comes in contact with copper, so at least sprinkle a little copper in there.

 

however you'll need a second opinion in terms of combining the lot together

[oldmanbeefjerky]

i only remembered the mixture right off the top of my head . when i was about 12-13 in germany, my uncle made a genuine (as he refered to it) volcanoe that blasted blobs of metal everywhere,blasted massive amounts of smelly gas (zinc + sulfur), and over flowed (with the help of what i believe was nitrogen gas).

i asked him what was in there, and he said lead iron copper aluminium and other stuff, which i was unable to interpret as my german wasnt that perfect at the time. i watched him make it also.

that night i saw that there were some glowing sections, which i beleive were zinc sulfide.

 

 

 

also, and let me make this perfectly clear, any chemical compund can be made, such as h2O5, or FeO5! they dont exist naturally, and their purpose is usually for experiments and some such.

it was a joke, i was making a science joke, and was not to be taken seriously OK.

from what ive heard you just want to find a reason to be angry at me, so if it makes you happy, ill just stop posting in hear and offering opinions based on personal experience and not hypothesis'

[Mumbles]

All I was asking for is some proof. Link to a journal article, manufacturer/researcher/developer of said instruments, etc would all be fine. I do take some issue with your statements that any chemical imaginable can be made, if even only in a few molecules at a time.

[MadMax]

I think he's thinking of V2O5 - vanadium pentoxide. But yeah when he said that bit about an iron oxide that is identical to potassium nitrate I went to look up stuff on it but found nothing at all on it. Fe2O3, Fe3O4 and FeO. FeO - "iron mill scale" can become pyrophoric at 200C and cause a dust explosion if on the air. But it's not due to being a potent oxidizer as it's due to being less-than-completely oxidized.

 

I guess what it all boils down to is if you are unsure if what you are posting is true then you should verify it. Incomplete information can be dangerous but not nearly as dangerous as misinformation.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

really runny thermite can be achieved by the addition of lead oxide, dioxide works best, as the reduced lead melts at 320 degrees or so.

 

however i dont have to remind you of the medical safety implications involved with lead. DONT BE NEAR THIS THERMITE WHEN IT BURNS!

 

 

And for the last time, the compounds i were talking about were a joke. any kind of atomic structure can be created for a tiny amount of time. like FeO99, but it isn't stable enough to last because there aren't enough bonds to keep it from decomposing into oxygen and iron oxide!

They aren't documented because they havent existed long enough to do so, aisde form experiments with temporary atomic structures to simulate dangerous/ rare/ expensive compounds for god knows what purpose, like energy conversion, radiation ect.

 

anything that is decomposing into two oxygens and isnt an inhibotor has oxidizing properties identical to potasium nitrate, if not better and proporsely increases decomposition at higher tempuratures!

but i wont further venture into that.

 

it was a scientific joke, dont be upset that your not smart enough to understand ok, no offense meant.

Edited June 20, 2011 by oldmanbeefjerky

[dagabu]

it was a scientific joke, dont be upset that your not smart enough to understand ok, no offense meant.

 

Was that a joke too? No offense meant but you are an ass sometimes. Now, if you wish to pick on me and say that I am not smart enough, you would be correct. I read these postings with awe but I do agree that care must be taken when flippant remarks are made especially when the results of a chemical experiment could be disastrous.

 

I would like to learn more about thermite and this thread is a bastion of information, some BS and some valuable. All I am asking for is that it be accurate so that if/when I wish to do some experimenting, I dont get hurt or hurt someone else due to a "joke" or such.

 

-dag

[oldmanbeefjerky]

yes of course!

no , that last one was not a joke, i thought what i was saying was fairly obvious.

But that doesn't matter now.

 

what i previously said still holds true, i myself would not recomend using the method my uncle uses, but i still stand against what i said about using lead.

 

if its for special effects and such, or you just like a good ol pile of splatterd metal to admire, i would go with lead, being the most commonly avaliable poor metal, and with such a low melting temp. perhaps, even you could just mix 30% by weight of the iron aluminium thermite mix, with lead shots, that way (according to my logic), you would escape the threat of lead oxide poisoning if you accidentally inhaled fumes, and all you would have to worry about is the lead vapour fever and lead poisoning.

 

dont use lead though as it will actually boil at those temepuratures, plus its toxic.

im just saying it will work, and you "could" use it, but unless you value your life and your surroundings well-being for that matter, do not do it.