What to buy and where?

[Megladon]

K, if all goes well I should be owning my own house by the middle/end of summer, and starting work on making my own fireworks soon after. I fully intend to get my ATF stuff done so i can play with the decent stuff, and it looks like I'll even be helping a pro set up for at least 1 big show this july. My questions are, other then black powder chemicals, and bentonite powder and a few metals for colors, what other chemicals might I need to get started? Right now my interests are shells and candles/mines.

 

There are also a few other things I'll need info on if anyone has time to answer. I've read alot on how bp is more then just 3 chemicals mixed together, and that you need to go through steps to get different quality's of the stuff like lift or burst charges. If anyone has any youtube videos i can reference for this that would be great. Keep in mind I have seen alot of whats out there, but most is done by people with few videos, or the bp turned out poorly, and I'm looking for some made by someone that knows what they're doing so i can make quality powder.

 

Next, buying stuff, I know from experience that skylighter can be pricey on books they sell, but given i've never bought anything other then books so far I dont know how they are on chemicals. Should I buy from them, or does anyone know a similar company that sells similar quality chemicals for less?

 

Lastly, since what I think looks cool is shells, I'll likely be making a good amount while i build my skill, does anyone have a reference to where I can make my own quality shells of different sizes? I've seen some where people paste paper onto different balls, but I'm looking for a print off or something i can use to get a size down, and something else i can use to form them shell with. Right now on skylighter it looks like 4" shells go for just over 1$ a set, and while I can afford that, I'd rather spend my money buying more chemicals so I can make more stars.

 

Thanks to anyone that answers, I'll be off reading my copy of Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics

[usapyro]

I would suggest getting stuff at cheaper places like hobbychemicalsupply... I mostly purchase off highqualitychems, americanpryosupply, cannonfuse.com, alphachemicals... I even purchase stuff of ceramics and biodiesel goods suppliers... Get some damn cheap bulk nitrate, some carbonates, iron/copper oxides and stuff. After enough time you discover more suppliers than you know what to do with... LoL! I would only order rare chemicals on skylighter I can't find anywhere else... Eg: Firefly Al. They are ridiculously expensive. I make my own charcoals.

 

I usually buy my potassium nitrate from dudadiesel but I am going to try this place next time... Even cheaper!

http://www.clayartcenter.net/~clayar5/content/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=32&sort=20a&page=17

 

 

What I would suggest you get started off with is some glitters... They are very cheap and impressive. All you need are black powder ingredients, a little atomized aluminum, and baking soda. If you want slightly nicer looking glitter you need some antimony trisulfide(Chinese Needle.)

You will need some Strontium and Barium (Nitrate or Carbonate) for red and green colors. Some copper oxide or other type of copper for blue. (Go with perchlorate as an oxidizer at first if using the carbonates, after you know what your doing when it comes to chemical compatability you'll probably want to use chlorate because it produces better colors.)

 

Review the known incompatibility list here...

http://pyroguide.com...?title=Deathmix

 

Here is my current chemicals list... The only thing I would want that is missing is Sodium Benzoate for whistle... I don't have a press at the moment so whatever. :/ I guess I could hand press some bottle rockets. With my chemicals I can make just about every single type of firework...

 

Chemical - Symbol

Antimony Trisulfide (Chinese Needle) - (Sb2S3)

Aluminum (German Dark 3 Micron Super) - (Al)

Aluminum (Atomized Spherical) - (Al)

Barium Carbonate - (BaCO3)

Barium Chlorate - (BaClO3)

Barium Nitrate - (Ba(NO3)2)

Bismuth Trioxide - (Bi2O3)

Boric Acid - (H3BO3)

Copper (II) Oxide - (CuO)

Dextrin

Ferro Titanium 60:40 (60-80 Mesh) - (FeTi)

Gum Arabic

Lampblack

Lead Tetroxide - (Pb3O4)

Magnalium (100/-200 Mesh) - (MgAl)

Magnalium (-325 Mesh) - (MgAl)

Magnesium (80-200 Mesh) - (Mg)

Parlon - ((C4H6Cl2)n)

Potassium Chlorate (KClO3)

Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)

Potassium Perchlorate (KCLO4)

PVC ([C2H3Cl]n)

Red Gum

Sulfur (S)

Sodium Oxalate - (Na2C2O4)

Strontium Carbonate - (SrCO3)

Strontium Nitrate - (Sr(NO3)2)

Silicon Metal Powder - (Si)

SGRS

Shellac

Zinc Dust - (Zn)

 

I use a lot of Chlorate for both H3 lift/break powder and I do a lot of Chlorate across the board in stars because it makes compatibility easier. Lots of people avoid chlorate because it's pretty sensitive and can self ignite if you have it in contact with anything containing sulfur and is a bit sensitive to antimony...

 

When I'm talking Chlorate I mean KClO3. Not Barium Chlorate.

Edited May 30, 2011 by usapyro

[usapyro]

If anyone has any youtube videos i can reference for this that would be great. Keep in mind I have seen alot of whats out there, but most is done by people with few videos, or the bp turned out poorly, and I'm looking for some made by someone that knows what they're doing so i can make quality powder.

 

I hear ya there... Only recently have I been able to get charcoal good enough for high quality black powder. I cut down my own willow trees and cook em nowadays. I just used H3(Chlorate Black Powder) for years... Don't need very high quality charcoal for that stuff!!! However, it is incompatible with anything containing sulfur and quite a bit more sensitive than black powder... Also expensive. If you use it as a burst charge... Use a thick coat of sulfurless black powder prime(With added silicone metal if needed) on your stars that contain sulfur. Some people like KP(Perchlorate Black Powder) too. It's good for 4-6" shells and you don't have to worry about sulfur compatibility. If you are curious how hazardous chlorate and sulfur are together... Toss a few drops of sulfuric acid into a spoonful of chlorate comp outdoors.

 

This is a great place for finding comps when getting started...

http://pyroguide.com...ry:Compositions

 

Btw, here is a recent 4" shell of mine. Gotta love that granulated H3 Lift and Burst... The stars had a good prime of sulfurless BP with silicone metal to prevent the sulfur contacting the H3/rice crispies burst. I only pasted three layers on this shell. (I'm lazy.) Going with 6+ layers of gummed tape would have given it a lot bigger spread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hakWfV4M5bg

Edited May 30, 2011 by usapyro

[Ralph]

K, if all goes well I should be owning my own house by the middle/end of summer, and starting work on making my own fireworks soon after. I fully intend to get my ATF stuff done so i can play with the decent stuff, and it looks like I'll even be helping a pro set up for at least 1 big show this july. My questions are, other then black powder chemicals, and bentonite powder and a few metals for colors, what other chemicals might I need to get started? Right now my interests are shells and candles/mines.

 

There are also a few other things I'll need info on if anyone has time to answer. I've read alot on how bp is more then just 3 chemicals mixed together, and that you need to go through steps to get different quality's of the stuff like lift or burst charges. If anyone has any youtube videos i can reference for this that would be great. Keep in mind I have seen alot of whats out there, but most is done by people with few videos, or the bp turned out poorly, and I'm looking for some made by someone that knows what they're doing so i can make quality powder.

 

Next, buying stuff, I know from experience that skylighter can be pricey on books they sell, but given i've never bought anything other then books so far I dont know how they are on chemicals. Should I buy from them, or does anyone know a similar company that sells similar quality chemicals for less?

 

Lastly, since what I think looks cool is shells, I'll likely be making a good amount while i build my skill, does anyone have a reference to where I can make my own quality shells of different sizes? I've seen some where people paste paper onto different balls, but I'm looking for a print off or something i can use to get a size down, and something else i can use to form them shell with. Right now on skylighter it looks like 4" shells go for just over 1$ a set, and while I can afford that, I'd rather spend my money buying more chemicals so I can make more stars.

 

Thanks to anyone that answers, I'll be off reading my copy of Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics

change your avitar which is highly annoying and prohibited by the rules than you might get some more answers

[Megladon]

change your avitar which is highly annoying and prohibited by the rules than you might get some more answers

 

I've checked the FAQ, it has nothing on avatar restrictions, when i'm in my profile it lists this:

Your avatar must be no bigger than 110 pixels by 110 pixels in size.

Uploaded avatars from your computer must be no larger than 150 KB.

The following file types are allowed: gif,jpg,jpeg,png

Mine meets the above, below that it states that if its to large it will be scaled down to fit, and its size is only 5.52kb, well under the size limit. If there is a problem with it, I cant see where it would be, and I've had it nearly the full 2 years I've been a member of the forums.

If you find it annoying, i'm sorry. Personally I love it, my wife made it for me, she made herself one thats pink and says the same thing. We are however not actual porn stars :-(

[Megladon]

I would suggest getting stuff at cheaper places like hobbychemicalsupply... I mostly purchase off highqualitychems, americanpryosupply, cannonfuse.com, alphachemicals... I even purchase stuff of ceramics and biodiesel goods suppliers... Get some damn cheap bulk nitrate, some carbonates, iron/copper oxides and stuff. After enough time you discover more suppliers than you know what to do with... LoL! I would only order rare chemicals on skylighter I can't find anywhere else... Eg: Firefly Al. They are ridiculously expensive. I make my own charcoals.

 

I usually buy my potassium nitrate from dudadiesel but I am going to try this place next time... Even cheaper!

http://www.clayartce...ort=20a&page=17

 

 

What I would suggest you get started off with is some glitters... They are very cheap and impressive. All you need are black powder ingredients, a little atomized aluminum, and baking soda. If you want slightly nicer looking glitter you need some antimony trisulfide(Chinese Needle.)

You will need some Strontium and Barium (Nitrate or Carbonate) for red and green colors. Some copper oxide or other type of copper for blue. (Go with perchlorate as an oxidizer at first if using the carbonates, after you know what your doing when it comes to chemical compatability you'll probably want to use chlorate because it produces better colors.)

 

Review the known incompatibility list here...

http://pyroguide.com...?title=Deathmix

 

Here is my current chemicals list... The only thing I would want that is missing is Sodium Benzoate for whistle... I don't have a press at the moment so whatever. :/ I guess I could hand press some bottle rockets. With my chemicals I can make just about every single type of firework...

 

Chemical - Symbol

Antimony Trisulfide (Chinese Needle) - (Sb2S3)

Aluminum (German Dark 3 Micron Super) - (Al)

Aluminum (Atomized Spherical) - (Al)

Barium Carbonate - (BaCO3)

Barium Chlorate - (BaClO3)

Barium Nitrate - (Ba(NO3)2)

Bismuth Trioxide - (Bi2O3)

Boric Acid - (H3BO3)

Copper (II) Oxide - (CuO)

Dextrin

Ferro Titanium 60:40 (60-80 Mesh) - (FeTi)

Gum Arabic

Lampblack

Lead Tetroxide - (Pb3O4)

Magnalium (100/-200 Mesh) - (MgAl)

Magnalium (-325 Mesh) - (MgAl)

Magnesium (80-200 Mesh) - (Mg)

Parlon - ((C4H6Cl2)n)

Potassium Chlorate (KClO3)

Potassium Nitrate (KNO3)

Potassium Perchlorate (KCLO4)

PVC ([C2H3Cl]n)

Red Gum

Sulfur (S)

Sodium Oxalate - (Na2C2O4)

Strontium Carbonate - (SrCO3)

Strontium Nitrate - (Sr(NO3)2)

Silicon Metal Powder - (Si)

SGRS

Shellac

Zinc Dust - (Zn)

 

I use a lot of Chlorate for both H3 lift/break powder and I do a lot of Chlorate across the board in stars because it makes compatibility easier. Lots of people avoid chlorate because it's pretty sensitive and can self ignite if you have it in contact with anything containing sulfur and is a bit sensitive to antimony...

 

When I'm talking Chlorate I mean KClO3. Not Barium Chlorate.

 

Thanks for the large list of suppliers and info. At least this first season if not longer I'll be staying away from Chlorates and H3. The stuff I've read, and the video's I've seen suggest that they're not for people starting out, and recommend waiting until you have more experience. Yes I do want vivid colors for what I make, but first I want a the skills I need to make the newbie stuff, and once I have a grasp on that then maybe move into that. What scares me the most about H3 is that in 1 video I saw someone had said if he had a shell filled with it on the table and it rolled off it could likely self ignite from just that short fall.

 

Also thanks for the list of your chemicals, not sure if your full list will help me given i'll only have 500-750$ to spend on my first round of supplies.

[Mumbles]

Ralph is actually right. Check out #11. http://www.amateurpy...les-read-first/ You just haven't been around enough, nor do I find yours particularly annoying compared to others to make a big deal about it.

 

However, I don't think it has anything to do with a lack of replies. The thread has been up for just over 12hr, most of which was the middle of the night in the US. I'm sure you'll get plenty of replies. I have some ideas to share when I am not so busy.

[Megladon]

Ralph is actually right. Check out #11. http://www.amateurpy...les-read-first/ You just haven't been around enough, nor do I find yours particularly annoying compared to others to make a big deal about it.

 

Doh! Ok you got me, you say the word and I'll remove it. Somehow I had missed that one, much apology to Ralph.

[usapyro]

I always have images turned off. What was the image? *Curious* Edit: Oh... Nvm, it's still up... I don't see whats so offensive about that avatar. The flashing is a bit annoying. :/

 

What scares me the most about H3 is that in 1 video I saw someone had said if he had a shell filled with it on the table and it rolled off it could likely self ignite from just that short fall.

 

Btw, to have a chlorate shell roll off the table and ignite... There would about have to be Antimony or Sulfur on the stars contacting the H3. Otherwise my H3 shells would never survive being shot upward 400+ feet... I have never had a flowerpot and I have used H3 since I started this hobby in 2009... In fact... If you want me to, I can go make a video of firing a H3 3" shell flat into hillside from 10 feet away with the equivalent lift for 500' and it won't self ignite... Don't believe everything you read. Make some of each powder and run your own friction and impact tests on it.

 

With some sulfur or antimony containing stars in the shell without a protective prime it would most likely ignite from being tossed from a second story window every time... Never tested that exactly, but I have tested antimony/chlorate pop-it mixtures before...

Edited May 30, 2011 by usapyro

[Megladon]

 

Btw, to have a chlorate shell roll off the table and ignite... There would about have to be Antimony or Sulfur on the stars contacting the H3.

 

Just to make sure I got the info correctly from the source I popped in the dvd I thought I got it from. "How the pro's make 6" shells" that I bought from AFN the other year. At 7:35 into it he starts talking about how if he cant get meal D then he makes whistle mix and talks about how he hates using it, then at 8:19 he talks about H3. His exact words "Shells with H3 in them are known to blow up when they fall off tables, I REALLY recommend against using H3 in shells" The person in question is Dave Stoddard and he's the one giving the demo.

 

I figured this person an expert and didnt think to question what he said as I figured he knows far more then I do. So at this point with you saying its not that big of a deal, and having no one come behind and disagree with you I'll have to do some searches on it so I can do some reading. If needed I'll try to find a way to copy the 30 seconds or so in question and put on youtube, but having never done that, it might be a while. Surely someone else has a copy of that dvd and could verify this though. Thx

[guntoteninfadel]

We are however not actual porn stars :-(

 

 

Just when you think this whole forum thing was going to get exciting.........

[Mumbles]

I would think that KP is more sensitive to impact that H3. Perchlorate and sulfur is disarmingly sensitive compared to chlorate. It take only a bit extra friction to get it to start snapping. I regularly use KP or another burst that is a toned down whistle mix to burst shells. I've dropped a large number, and seen a few come back to earth. Not one has ever gone off. That is not to say it will never ever happen, but those warnings seem a bit over blown. I have heard people say that when H3 shells (perhaps with sulfur containing stars or prime), that they have been known to go off upon hitting the earth in the case of duds. A table and 300 feet are two different levels of impact though.

 

As far as supplies, it's always a hard subject to cover. I'd make sure you have all the stuff for glitters, as they are some beautiful effects. Outside of BP ingredients, this would likely include antimony trisulfide, barium carbonate, a good atomized glitter Al, possibly red iron oxide and perhaps sodium oxalate. The last two are kind of optional, but will open up some different effects. Titanium would be good for tails too.

 

After that I'd get something for colors. Magnalium, potassium perchlorate, red gum, parlon, and/or saran. You can make good colors from carbonates or nitrates if you're using metal fuels. I've been liking Buell Red, and the analogous green made with barium carbonate lately. You can also blend them and make a very nice yellow. I prefer copper oxide for blue, but everyone has their own preferences.

[perrush]

Hi all,

 

I make sculptures out of bismuth. I have Bi-oxide as a byproduct. Normally I purify the Bi-oxide and regenerate it again to bismuth. But it is time-consuming and involves the use of a strong acid (not so safe). So I was wondering if I could sell the Bi-oxide to spare me the hassle of refining it.

 

I could ship my DIY Bi-oxide worldwide for $29/lb in 45gr packages or for $26.5/lb in a 340gr package. Mind it won't be 99% pure.

 

First question. Would there be any interest, in general (I don't mean on this forum) at these prices? Or are there suppliers worldwide which offers similar prices for regular Bi-oxide ?

[butch]

Is the potassium nitrate that clay art center sells as good as what pyro websites sell?

[TheArchitect23]

Is the potassium nitrate that clay art center sells as good as what pyro websites sell?

 

it should be fine, however their prices aren't very great after shipping. google around there are 80.00 for 50 lbs shipped. check greenhouse supplys.

[taiwanluthiers]

I personally would make chlorate stars, then use a barrier prime of some kind (sulfurless bp or something) to shield it, then use regular bp as burst (boosted if necessary).

 

I am not sure about needing to use H3 because I've read they're more useful in smaller shells rather than a big one.

[butch]

Thanks for the info. What would be a safe oven temp for each ingredient nitrate, charcoal and sulfur?

[Mumbles]

I dried my nitrate at around 300 or 350F. I personally wouldn't want to put charcoal or especially sulfur in any oven used for preparing food, or that was indoors. I've never actually had a problem with sulfur ever really absorbing water. It's actually fairly hydrophobic. For charcoal, I prefer to dry it with desiccants in the container, but that isn't particularly quick. Preventative maintenance on the charcoal is really the best route if you plan ahead.

[dagabu]

At what temp does KON3 start to degrade Mum? I am hesitant to go past 225 degrees on chems and charcoal.

 

-dag

[Mumbles]

It depends what source you look at. I found a couple that say it decomposes at 400C (750F), but most say 560C (1040F). KNO3 is pretty thermally robust.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Hm, I tried my new BP today, the really fine one bound with +1% SGRS. I used 8.5% of the shell weight to lift a 5" with "junk stars". It was fairly powerful but it didn't feel like it was really top performing. My ballmill is very efficient, so I guess the key is to dry the KNO₃ and the charcoal really good.

 

I have never heard that sulfur could attract moisture at all.

[Excal]

Guess I need to purchase a Hobby oven. I am reading more and more about drying out chems before use. The BP chem drying makes the most sense. I can see where just a bit of moisture before mill processing could throw the ratios off.

[AirCowPeacock]

I dont see the ratios as a big deal. Unless your materials are really wet it shouldn't throw anything off by more than 2%. The material sticking to the side of the mill on the otherhand...