Is rollling dead?

[usapyro]

Does anyone roll stars anymore? You don't see much on it anywhere...

I built a star-roller the other day that can hold a five gallon bucket, but I use a shallow three gallon bucket with the same width as a five gallon bucket. It's angled about 20 degrees upward and powered by a old foot pedal controlled drill press drill. I still have not gotten down the technique... So I only use it for priming stars.

 

Attempts at star rolling usually end up with raspberries or most of the comp stuck to the bottom of the bucket... Grrrr...

 

For an experiment the other day I tried to roll one really big star... Got it up to an inch and a half. When I went to pick it up the thing was squishy... Strange... The surface was dry but with one finger barely touching you could make an indent into it... I was just using BP prime with 6% SGRS... Once it dried it ended up like a Hersheys kiss, minus the decorative top.

 

I'm not sure I care for rolling stars... It sure raises a lot of hazardous dust!!! Rolling strontium and barium comps... Eeek!

[Xtreme Pyro]

I roll stars quite often. The raspberries are due to too much water, so use as little watter as possible. I've also found that the bigger the batch, the easier they are to roll. I use a 5 gallon bucket for rolling stars, and have had nothing but success with it. Whats your water / alcohol ratio in your mister?

[ExplosiveCoek]

Raspberries are due to NOT having enough water, and adding your powder increments to fast so the water can not spread evenly through your whole batch/star surface.

 

There are a lot of people who roll their stars, but the people who don't care about what their shell's/stars look like use other things like screen slicing method. If you want a perfect shell, you'll need perfect stars.. And that's best reached by using rolled stars IMO (screened to size!).

[Pechovski]

Raspberries are due to NOT having enough water, and adding your powder increments to fast so the water can not spread evenly through your whole batch/star surface.

 

There are a lot of people who roll their stars, but the people who don't care about what their shell's/stars look like use other things like screen slicing method. If you want a perfect shell, you'll need perfect stars.. And that's best reached by using rolled stars IMO (screened to size!).

 

Well it also depends on the type of shell your doing. Usually cut or pumped stars are preferred for cylindrical shells

 

And there is another thread up regarding Raspberries, think it was recently updated with a post: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6051-rolled-stars/

[ExplosiveCoek]

Hmm, well I guess you're right about that! I'm used to making ball shell's, that's why I made the link with rolled stars..

[dagabu]

I roll stars quite often. The raspberries are due to too much water, so use as little watter as possible. I've also found that the bigger the batch, the easier they are to roll. I use a 5 gallon bucket for rolling stars, and have had nothing but success with it. Whats your water / alcohol ratio in your mister?

 

 

Raspberries are due to NOT having enough water, and adding your powder increments to fast so the water can not spread evenly through your whole batch/star surface.

 

There are a lot of people who roll their stars, but the people who don't care about what their shell's/stars look like use other things like screen slicing method. If you want a perfect shell, you'll need perfect stars.. And that's best reached by using rolled stars IMO (screened to size!).

 

You two are hilarious!

 

Raspberries are caused by many issues with surface tension being the primary and the comp being secondary and while it is true that the powder increments do exacerbate the issue, it is actually the phenomena of high point loading where the comp is only stuck where the large particles grab other particles and grow bumps.

 

Charcoal based stars are the most likely suspects and any comp that has large mesh chems is a good candidate as well. The TORO method is used by the Japanese and a few commercial manufacturers state side for these hard to roll stars. A slurry is poured on the rolling stars and powder is added very quickly after the slurry is taken up. This takes a fast drum, larger stars and lots of experience.

 

-dag

[dagabu]

Does anyone roll stars anymore? You don't see much on it anywhere...

I built a star-roller the other day that can hold a five gallon bucket, but I use a shallow three gallon bucket with the same width as a five gallon bucket. It's angled about 20 degrees upward and powered by a old foot pedal controlled drill press drill. I still have not gotten down the technique... So I only use it for priming stars.

 

Attempts at star rolling usually end up with raspberries or most of the comp stuck to the bottom of the bucket... Grrrr...

 

For an experiment the other day I tried to roll one really big star... Got it up to an inch and a half. When I went to pick it up the thing was squishy... Strange... The surface was dry but with one finger barely touching you could make an indent into it... I was just using BP prime with 6% SGRS... Once it dried it ended up like a Hersheys kiss, minus the decorative top.

 

I'm not sure I care for rolling stars... It sure raises a lot of hazardous dust!!! Rolling strontium and barium comps... Eeek!

 

A bucket will give you a very narrow band of proper rolling area and lend s itself to difficulties. A bowl shaped bottom is much more conducive to rolling and the ability to speed up or slow down the bowl will give you the best stars.

 

Only add about 1/8" to 3/16" at a time and let them dry between coatings. Stars do take a long time to roll, it takes me 8 hours to roll a batch or Truely Red stars to 3/8".

 

-dag

[ExplosiveCoek]

You two are hilarious!

 

Yeah, but at least my rockets fly straight up.. Lol.

 

it is actually the phenomena of high point loading where the comp is only stuck where the large particles grab other particles and grow bumps.

 

Could you explain this a little more, what is 'high point loading'..?

 

Charcoal based stars are the most likely suspects and any comp that has large mesh chems is a good candidate as well. The TORO method is used by the Japanese and a few commercial manufacturers state side for these hard to roll stars. A slurry is poured on the rolling stars and powder is added very quickly after the slurry is taken up. This takes a fast drum, larger stars and lots of experience.

 

-dag

 

So, what's wrong with my statement.. Add MORE water?? I'm sorry for not being clear enough, water should of course be a solution of alcohol:water around 50:50 for starting cores or stars who are prone to spiking.

 

I think he'll f*ck up his stars even more when he's going to try the TORO method you explained (without any detail at all) instead of trying one of my tips. Don't say things without any detailed explanation. The TORO method is quite nice, after 5-6mm cores and then it's still quite hard to roll your stars right. Most of the times I won't use it until my stars reached 10mm or for priming only.

 

Your right about not adding to much size to the stars in one time though, especially with SGRS it wont work at all. 2-3 mm for SGRS is max is what I've been told. For dextrine I roll around 5mm extra most of the time, or until I hit the next layer.

[usapyro]

Woah... Everyone in here needs to calm down.

 

I think the main thing I'm starting to see is that star rolling takes patience... I am adding way too much water and power at a time. Eight hours to roll a batch of stars? Woah... I would have tried to attempt that exact same size in 30 to 45 minutes...

 

The reason why I suddenly built a full size roller was because I was using a bowl to hand roll prime on square cut stars the other day and it was going so smoothly I thought it was time to attempt rolling again for the first time in a year and a half.

 

 

I am going to attempt to roll this comp around waxed crackling cores next... Just going to use a weaker Ethanol binder. Wish me luck... Haha

 

Brilliant Red

Strontium Nitrate 53g

MGAL 19g

Red Gum 11g

Parlon 17g

Binder - Acetone (Strong) or Ethanol(Weak)

[Arthur]

Rolling is good for big batches once you have a suitably shaped roller drum. However then you need somewhere to safely dry stars by the thousand. For hobbyist use a set of star pumps or a cutting screen will make a reasonable number of stars with reasonable effort and will not take too much room in storage.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

it takes me 8 hours to roll a batch or Truely Red stars to 3/8".

 

-dag

 

haha

[dagabu]

So, what's wrong with my statement.. Add MORE water?? I'm sorry for not being clear enough, water should of course be a solution of alcohol:water around 50:50 for starting cores or stars who are prone to spiking.

 

There is nothing wrong with the statement you made but it only covers some of the reasons why you may get raspberries. In high charcoal content stars you will find that adding more water will just make the charcoal wetter and not improve the bumps and will then drive in the moisture. A surfactant like alcohol will help but at a content greater then 30%, it actually causes the binder to fail and can cause cracks like adding too much water can cause.

 

A 50:50 water:alcohol mix will not activate dextrin, SGRS, CMC or other gums and is why I like to look to ideas like TORO as an alternative. Its not difficult at all, it just takes time and patience.

 

-dag

[dagabu]

haha

 

Please share with us your star rolling experiences. It would be good to hear something beside acrimony from you.

 

-dag

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Why should I? There's always a dagabu around who knows better. Makes shit or even nothing and has the highest postcount ever within a couple of months.

If you need 8 hours to roll some stars up to less than 10mm, then why are you giving advices? You've made 4 posts of 13 in total in this topic about rolling stars, coincidence? or is it just that you like to talk so much?

[dagabu]

Why should I? There's always a dagabu around who knows better. Makes shit or even nothing and has the highest postcount ever within a couple of months.

If you need 8 hours to roll some stars up to less than 10mm, then why are you giving advices? You've made 4 posts of 13 in total in this topic about rolling stars, coincidence? or is it just that you like to talk so much?

 

OK, lets address this then shall we? According to Pyrobin and YouTube, I have posted 237 pyrotechnic items here over the past two plus years, that is well beyond "makes shit or even nothing". I make and post lots of items as well as my failures for everyone to view. Just by the words you choose to use against me, it shows that you are desperate, shallow, little man with no ability to engage in the kind of open debate that we need here. You choose to strike back because you are at a loss and cannot give a reasonable retort so you have to swear and spread acrimony to show that you still have testosterone.

 

I got my star rolling technique from Albert Knobloch directly. I dont know anyone in the industry that would ever disagree with Albert that his stars are just about as good as they get. The method involves lots of rolling, small increments and a large star count. It works well, they dry fast and dont crack.

 

Its interesting that you are willing to flame others and be a troll but are not willing to address the questions, flat out lie about the fantastical 25 seconds of whistle while carrying a full kilo payload rocket that does not exist yet feels it is his place to put down someone that has demonstrated EVERY claim that has been challenged and has admitted fault and apologized when wrong.

 

You state that because I have a large post count that its perhaps because I like to hear myself talk but dont dispute my claims.... Interesting. Perhaps that is the point of a forum such as this? Would you rather spew your diatribe against me or just answer the questions I have posted of you? I think we all know the answer to that question and that is why even though you have lots of experience and make nice shells, you are not well liked. I have 480 private messages, only a handful of which I have initiated, where I have questions posed to me nearly every day.

 

There is no reason for your acid reply's and if you wish for me to make a correction to my behavior then show a bit of gumption and PM me directly.

 

-dag

Edited May 28, 2011 by dagabu

[ExplosiveCoek]

There is nothing wrong with the statement you made but it only covers some of the reasons why you may get raspberries. In high charcoal content stars you will find that adding more water will just make the charcoal wetter and not improve the bumps and will then drive in the moisture. A surfactant like alcohol will help but at a content greater then 30%, it actually causes the binder to fail and can cause cracks like adding too much water can cause.

 

A 50:50 water:alcohol mix will not activate dextrin, SGRS, CMC or other gums and is why I like to look to ideas like TORO as an alternative. Its not difficult at all, it just takes time and patience.

 

-dag

 

To be honest, it's what I use all the time (50:50). I use 75:25 H20:alc for larger stars/stars that roll more easily. My stars are rock hard ! Same goes for the story about SGRS not being activated when you use alcohol, I was rolling some stars with a friend lately and only noticed at the end that he was using alcohol to roll is SGRS based Tiger Tail. His stars looked fine though, next time when I get there I'll check if they're rock hard to.

 

"Its not difficult at all, it just takes time and patience. " And that's exactly why it won't work for beginners, lol.

 

No problems for me so far..

 

 

Btw Freaky, how long does it take you to roll a batch stars of cores to 5mm and then up to 10 mm with a different compo (including sizing) then? Ps. check your mail ^^!

Edited May 28, 2011 by ExplosiveCoek

[dagabu]

To be honest, it's what I use all the time (50:50). I use 75:25 H20:alc for larger stars/stars that roll more easily. My stars are rock hard ! Same goes for the story about SGRS not being activated when you use alcohol, I was rolling some stars with a friend lately and only noticed at the end that he was using alcohol to roll is SGRS based Tiger Tail. His stars looked fine though, next time when I get there I'll check if they're rock hard to.

 

"Its not difficult at all, it just takes time and patience. " And that's exactly why it won't work for beginners, lol.

 

No problems for me so far..

 

 

Btw Freaky, how long does it take you to roll a batch stars of cores to 5mm and then up to 10 mm with a different compo (including sizing) then? Ps. check your mail ^^!

 

Ill give the 50:50 a shot, I have strobe stars to roll next (Lord help me!) and they are horrible to roll due to the large MgAl pieces. I don't do a lot of SGRS, maybe that is the key huh?

 

-dag

[SjeefOne]

Same goes for the story about SGRS not being activated when you use alcohol, I was rolling some stars with a friend lately and only noticed at the end that he was using alcohol to roll is SGRS based Tiger Tail.

Boy did we get the spiritus high

Butt, spiritus is about 85% Methanol and the rest probably water so it could be the 15% activating the binder I vote a try with nothing but alcohol! And get even higher!

[ExplosiveCoek]

I rolled strobe stars lately, started with 1mm discodip cores and rolled the up to 4mm. Then a little bit of pinball priming. It really is a bitch to get them going because of the large MgAl chunks, I used 100 mesh. I'll upload a picture of them later including a small vid of an unprimed star (had to test them before rolling more of them ). The MgAl will stick everywhere to your drum, took me a couple of times to get every MgAl piece out of my roller..

 

I did use the 50:50 for them though, dextrin based. I've never rolled with SGRS before, just plain ole dex .

 

*uploading the vid's right now*

 

@Sjeef: Yeah you're right haaha, I was really happy when I was able to breath in some fresh air outside XD! I don't know if it was pure spiritus, or that he mixed it with some water. IIRC he did, but it's as much as 4:6 H20:spiritus from what I recall (it's al a vague, black spot in my memory.. lol).

Edited May 28, 2011 by ExplosiveCoek

[SjeefOne]

IIRC he did, but it's as much as 4:6 H20:spiritus from what I recall (it's al a vague, black spot in my memory.. lol).

I believe him saying after you asked him what the ratio was, that it was pure spiritus, no water (except for the water that is already in spiritus out of the bottle).

Could be that of course that i was hallucinating at the time due to oxygen deprivation of my brain, who knows..

Edited May 28, 2011 by SjeefOne

[dagabu]

I rolled strobe stars lately, started with 1mm discodip cores and rolled the up to 4mm. Then a little bit of pinball priming. It really is a bitch to get them going because of the large MgAl chunks, I used 100 mesh. I'll upload a picture of them later including a small vid of an unprimed star (had to test them before rolling more of them ). The MgAl will stick everywhere to your drum, took me a couple of times to get every MgAl piece out of my roller..

 

I did use the 50:50 for them though, dextrin based. I've never rolled with SGRS before, just plain ole dex .

 

*uploading the vid's right now*

 

@Sjeef: Yeah you're right haaha, I was really happy when I was able to breath in some fresh air outside XD! I don't know if it was pure spiritus, or that he mixed it with some water. IIRC he did, but it's as much as 4:6 H20:spiritus from what I recall (it's al a vague, black spot in my memory.. lol).

 

I can't find discodip here in the US. Do you have a link or two?

 

-dag

[ExplosiveCoek]

@ sjeef: Yeah, I recall something like that to.. But I couldn't follow him anymore at that point, to far gone I guess haha. Next time I'll bring my organic vapor filter .

 

 

 

Dagabu, try this

 

Or search 'discodip' on google.nl (afbeeldingen). They put it on ice-cream and such as decoration.

[dagabu]

Gotcha! In the US we call them nonpareils. I found edible pearls in 2mm to 7mm, what is a good size to start with?

 

-dag

[ExplosiveCoek]

The ones I use are around 1mm for cores, the smaller the better but also the harder to start rolling them.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Btw Freaky, how long does it take you to roll a batch stars of cores to 5mm and then up to 10 mm with a different compo (including sizing) then? Ps. check your mail ^^!

 

You haven't got a reply from me?

 

 

From cores to 5mm about 30-45 minutes, from 5 to 10mm about 30 minutes, I think it can be done even faster. I size my stars while I'm rolling. When I need everything 10+ then close after the first stars become 10mm I start screening them, everything that falls trough the sizing plate goes back into the roller. This whole process takes quite some time.

 

Dagabu, stating I'm not well liked, well perhaps in your world and I can't blame you for it.