Need a New Ignition System (semi newbie)

[Vrizla]

So far I have only used cheap ignition systems with the clip on type ignitions and regretted it. I know someone in CT who knows all about this he helped me last year with my display shells, but I can't get a hold of him. I'm not ready to make a big investment and I have been reading all day and I'm more confused then last year. I also had more time to prep. I did want to build an ignition system if i can make a good one cheaper then I can buy. I want all hard wire, preferably disposable or at least some of it. E-matches can be a pain especially if you thread them. I was thinking If I made a pyro slurry on every wick I could ignite it by twisting shooting wire around each fuse then pass electricity . I know I still need to design my box and get the right gauge wire. Does anyone think this will work or do I have to buy the nichrome wire. I saw some posts where people just wrap the nichrome like I'm planning on doing with shooting wire. If I'm totally heading in the wrong direction let me know

[dagabu]

If I'm totally heading in the wrong direction let me know

 

Completely wrong direction....

 

You need a bridge-wire, the use of the shoot wire will only heat up the entire length of wire, burn everything it touches, hurt your system and drain your battery. There is a reason that e-matches are used.

 

ODA sells 1000 match heads uncoated for $70.00, you solder on the wires and dip the heads. I use the 50 gauge wires and can light them up with a CD Blaster Box (also by ODA) 1000' feet down bell wire.

 

Stay with the e-matches.

 

Shooting wire HERE

 

Match Heads HERE

 

Blaster Box HERE

 

Small Solid State Box HERE

 

50 Shot Box HERE

 

I personally have a wireless system from Alpha Fire as well as a 32 que hardwired system from them and they work well for home shows and we use the individual wireless cubes to fire the big shells WAY out in back so we dont have to run wiring.

 

-dag

Edited May 26, 2011 by dagabu

[Vrizla]

I have a lot of research to do in very little time. I'm definitely not using the Mickey Mouse Clip On's again. Although they might actually be good if I had a decent ignition system and primed all fuses, but I'm not risking a last minute failure, I think I still have a box. I read one post here someone was just using Nichrome Bridge Wire and wrapping it around a primed fuse, then I think they painted more slurry over it. Would that work or should I stick with E-matches. I think if I used the wrap around Nichrome it would be a pain to hook up shooting wire.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Vrizla

[Vrizla]

By the way Dag, Thank You so much for all your info.

[dagabu]

I have a lot of research to do in very little time. I'm definitely not using the Mickey Mouse Clip On's again. Although they might actually be good if I had a decent ignition system and primed all fuses, but I'm not risking a last minute failure, I think I still have a box. I read one post here someone was just using Nichrome Bridge Wire and wrapping it around a primed fuse, then I think they painted more slurry over it. Would that work or should I stick with E-matches. I think if I used the wrap around Nichrome it would be a pain to hook up shooting wire.

 

A couple items to note: If you use a long bridge wire, it will take significantly more power to break the wire. E-matches have a bridge of about 1/32", wrapping it around a piece of visco that is intentionally flame retardant from the side (SCPC) will take a LOT of power and black powder will take a lot of heat before igniting so adding even more will only act as a heatsink. The clips use Tungsten wire like a glow plug and not Nichrome wire like an E-match.

 

For shows, we dont use any visco, we match directly to the quick match with the E-match and tape them securely together. I also poke a hole in the quick match to give the pressure a place to escape instead of blowing the QM off the E-match.

 

The problem is that most firing systems have limited power to fire and cannot power the bridge wires you are specifying.

 

-dag

[Vrizla]

I definitely want something with significant power to fire multiple items and is upgradeable. I have a friend who could glance at a few diagrams and build one after a trip to Radio Shack and Home Depot, but he isn't interested. He's more of the light cake with torch kinda guy. I'm starting to consider calling off the big show this year, and just bring a few items to a friend's house. I spent way too much money last year, and had a few bad apples in the bunch doing stupid SH!T. You know your a pyro junkie when your display is worth 5 times as much as your car I'll see what happens. I think I would rather spend money going to the PGI this year. I wanted to so bad last year but was flat broke.

[dagabu]

I think I would rather spend money going to the PGI this year. I wanted to so bad last year but was flat broke.

 

I am glad you missed it last year, if it were my first one, I would never go back!

 

This year is in Fargo, It will be a great year.

 

-dag

[MadMax]

This may or may not be the ideal way of doing ematches but in the past I've taken old xmas lights wit those mini-bulbs. They pop right out like nothing and have wires on each side. With a pliers I've pinched and broken the tips off leaving a small hole at the top. I then fill this with BP meal and seal the top with tape or superglue. This is sort of the poor man's squib/ematch kit.

 

As for wire I use Ethernet. It has 8 wires in it (4 twisted pair) so each eth wire is capable of firing 4 devices. If you want to really get fancy you could make a pair of female ethernet punch panels, place one by the firer and one down range. This way you could use regular old store bought ethernet and just plug in the cables in the patch panels and move them around as needed in groups of 4. I didn't do anything this cool I just used a few ethernet cables with the ends hacked off and the wires stripped.

 

My ignition system was just a car batt with a nice big switchboard. I've designed it so circuit is never truly "open" until you are ready to fire. So when the safety is engage all circuits are shorted to prevent static buildup and the batt disconnected. When it goes live I pulled out a metal rod and all circuits are open and batt is connected. Then each circuit closes on the battery when each button is pressed.

 

I had given some thought on buying a USB controlled 64-channel relay and used that to close the circuits via software but then I only have so much time on my hands.

[dagabu]

This may or may not be the ideal way of doing ematches but in the past I've taken old xmas lights wit those mini-bulbs. They pop right out like nothing and have wires on each side. With a pliers I've pinched and broken the tips off leaving a small hole at the top. I then fill this with BP meal and seal the top with tape or superglue. This is sort of the poor man's squib/ematch kit.

 

They have been used for years, the tungsten filament is pretty fragile and breaks easily so only use new bulbs, used bulbs will not work. They are cheap but the glass keeps me from taking them seriously.

 

As for wire I use Ethernet. It has 8 wires in it (4 twisted pair) so each eth wire is capable of firing 4 devices. If you want to really get fancy you could make a pair of female ethernet punch panels, place one by the firer and one down range. This way you could use regular old store bought ethernet and just plug in the cables in the patch panels and move them around as needed in groups of 4. I didn't do anything this cool I just used a few ethernet cables with the ends hacked off and the wires stripped.

 

Cat-5 is the same gauge as shooting wire so it works well and with 8 strands, you can shoot 7 devices, not just four. Use one wire as your hot wire and connect that one to all of your devices and attach the second wire to each device and the switch, when you close the contact, the single wire will be drawing powder through one of the 7 return wires. You can almost double you capacity for free

 

My ignition system was just a car batt with a nice big switchboard. I've designed it so circuit is never truly "open" until you are ready to fire. So when the safety is engage all circuits are shorted to prevent static buildup and the batt disconnected. When it goes live I pulled out a metal rod and all circuits are open and batt is connected. Then each circuit closes on the battery when each button is pressed.

 

Not very different then a nailboard, simple is good.

 

I had given some thought on buying a USB controlled 64-channel relay and used that to close the circuits via software but then I only have so much time on my hands.

 

This where money is king, there are lots of so-so systems out there and $100.00 often will give you a system that will last a lifetime.

 

-dag

[Vrizla]

Dag that cat 5 idea is awesome, I have a Butt load of it to. I need to order e-match along with many other essentials fuse and mortars, Plus there are so many consumer products I love to add to my show. Shoot I just gave away my extra car battery. You might even be able to buy or make a manual switch instead of unplugging, Most likely I will have something like a nail board this year.

[dagabu]

Dag that cat 5 idea is awesome, I have a Butt load of it to. I need to order e-match along with many other essentials fuse and mortars, Plus there are so many consumer products I love to add to my show. Shoot I just gave away my extra car battery. You might even be able to buy or make a manual switch instead of unplugging, Most likely I will have something like a nail board this year.

 

Car batteries are great things but I have found that if a dead short happens, you will melt the cable and it's shot. I prefer 3V systems or CD systems that cant melt wires under a dead short.

 

-dag

[Vrizla]

I have done a ton of reading and e-match is definitely the way to go. I think I'm going to make something like a nail board, and buy ready to dip match leads. Ready dip leads are more money but I am also short on time.  Edited May 31, 2011 by Vrizla

[dagabu]

I have done a ton of reading and e-match is definitely the way to go. I think I'm going to make something like a nail board, and buy ready to dip match leads. Ready dip leads are more money but I am also short on time. In my original post the idea I explained wasn't what I thought I have seen people do. I have seen people take Nichrome wire wrap it around black match or coated visco and hook the shooting wire to each end of Nichrome sometimes even paint some more ignition slurry on top. Would that be an ok alternative to full e-match? My only concern is accidental ignition of close by matches, they would have to be protected somehow.

 

The same as above.

 

A couple items to note: If you use a long bridge wire, it will take significantly more power to break the wire. E-matches have a bridge of about 1/32", wrapping it around a piece of visco that is intentionally flame retardant from the side (SCPC) will take a LOT of power and black powder will take a lot of heat before igniting so adding even more will only act as a heatsink. The clips use Tungsten wire like a glow plug and not Nichrome wire like an E-match.

 

For shows, we dont use any visco, we match directly to the quick match with the E-match and tape them securely together. I also poke a hole in the quick match to give the pressure a place to escape instead of blowing the QM off the E-match.

 

The problem is that most firing systems have limited power to fire and cannot power the bridge wires you are specifying.

 

-dag

[Vrizla]

Sorry I must not have scrolled down all the way on my original thread. I hope I can finish drawing my prototype today, then go to Radio Shack..

[MadMax]

Duh my bad - I knew that. Sorry I was still thinking digital systems.

 

Cat-5 is the same gauge as shooting wire so it works well and with 8 strands, you can shoot 7 devices, not just four. Use one wire as your hot wire and connect that one to all of your devices and

[Vrizla]

I remembered where I got the idea of wrapping bridge wire around visco. I came across http://www.pyrouniverse.com/show/firingsystems/20-cue.htm about 10 years ago. The site is mostly contains information about safely using consumer fireworks. There are other threads on electronics that reference this site, for slat design and links, I still use a lot of consumer fireworks for my display especially this year since I'm short on time. All of the ignition systems shown use high amp car batteries, I wasn't planning on re using my wire but, I should design a proper ignition system that will not risk popping shooting wire. If I followed something similar to this: http://www.pyrouniverse.com/show/firingsystems/joe.htm and used e-matches could I power it off of a 9 volt battery. I don't understand why this design uses both a rotary switch and light switches, I understand the use of diodes to prevent accidental ignition. Unfortunately I can't afford a decent sized system this year, and I have lots of cat 5 wire, so I'm looking for the most functionality at lowest cost, without compromising safety. I also have a decent amount of the Tungsten clips I want to use up,

[Vrizla]

Here is the diagram for system

 

I figured out why he used wall switches and rotary switches, if you want to fire multiple ques at once. I want to use a 9 volt battery and e matches so I don't think wall switches would be the best choice. If anyone could recommend what kind of flip switch to use, what size diode and what gauge/ type of wire to use in the box I would really appreciate it. I have used several store bought electronic ignition systems in the past but I'm really not knowledgeable at all when it comes to electricity.

[Thanke]

Here is the diagram for system

 

I figured out why he used wall switches and rotary switches, if you want to fire multiple ques at once. I want to use a 9 volt battery and e matches so I don't think wall switches would be the best choice. If anyone could recommend what kind of flip switch to use, what size diode and what gauge/ type of wire to use in the box I would really appreciate it. I have used several store bought electronic ignition systems in the past but I'm really not knowledgeable at all when it comes to electricity.

 

I spend alot of time over on PyroU, and don't post much here as I really don't have much to offer in terms of manufacturing experience, but I do enjoy reading and learning.

Here is the Holy Grail for wired home built systems. It is also on PyroU, it is written by the same guy that you are referencing, but this is much more up to date and way more in depth:

 

PyroU Firing System Diagrams

 

Sit back with a glass of your favorite beverage, and read straight through it. It took me a while because I kept having to going back to make sure I was understanding what I was reading. This will really help you decide what direction you would like to go. When I decided this was the route I wanted to take, I couldn't read an electrical schematic and was not very knowledgeable, but that site has a ton of information on the subject that really helped.

I highly recommend consumer clip ignitors called Talons, at around 35-50 cents a piece I haven't felt a desire to mess with dipping ematch. The trick with these things is to make sure to not break the nichrome wire while installing them on the fuse. If the fuse gets pushed our pulled through the clip once it is on is where most of the problems arise. When I use them, I am usually attaching them to paper fast fuse as close the lift as I can get it. Here's a youtube tutorial that does an excellent job of showing how to use these:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWkRmOAgA9A

 

 

I have a 200 cue system I built that is powered by 2 SLA batteries wired together for 24volts, and a 40 cue system that I built to be powered by 18volt cordless drill batteries. Both of these power sources give you plenty of uumph for heating up nichrome, but won't melt the plastic off of shooting wire.

 

These are the switches I use and I know two guys who are building units for sale use them as well:

Switches

These are constant on and momentary on which offers more flexibility when firing a show because this will allow you to fire fronts at the exact same time.

 

My system has 18,20, and 22awg solid and stranded in it. I recommend sticking to 20 or 22awg because it is easier to work with in tight spaces.

I used 3amp diodes on every cue.

 

Here's a link to what mine looks like.

200 Cue Firing Panel

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/gallery2/data/500/medium/200_cue_system.JPG

1 of 5 slats

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/gallery2/data/500/medium/Easter_B-Day_Shoot_2010_7_.JPG

40 Cue Firing Panel

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/gallery2/data/500/medium/40_cue_system.JPG

Slat

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/gallery2/data/500/medium/July_Show_2010_8_.JPG

 

http://www.pyrouniverse.com/gallery2/data/500/medium/Thanke_Firing_System_Schematic.gif

Edited June 14, 2011 by Thanke

[Vrizla]

That's a really nice system you have there, I hope to have enough money to buy slats instead of building them. I have a bunch of those type of ignitors they are a different brand, but same thing. I'm going to use them for some things, but I'm looking to get more precise timing using e-matches to ignite quick match. How do you switch ques on your system? Thank you for the link to Pyro U, I agree it's a good site for information, however i find it not to be organized very well. It's been around for a long time, I think the owner has just got too busy with school and finding a job, which I can relate to.

[Mumbles]

If you want precision, why bother with quickmatch at all? It is going to introduce some unknown error into every shot. While it wont be a lot, it adds up if you're really trying to choreograph something. I'd e-match directly into the lift if I were going for precision.

[Vrizla]

I was thinking about doing that too, but the sensitivity of match heads scares me a little. I may do that with some of my homemade cakes and mines using disposable tubes, but for display shells I feel more comfortable lowering it in the mortar then sticking e-match into pipe tube. I'm not at the point where I can choreograph a show I just want it to be more organized then usual. Planning on starting with open shoot, then do my show, then end night with another open shoot for late arrivals. Unfortunately I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to electric diagrams, I have been reading various sites info, but if I decide to tweak the design a little I'm lost if I should change size of diodes resistors and wire. I can read logic gates and flow charts, I should be able to read an electric diagram, but I'm still learning. Ct cut funding for state universities so I'm really tight on cash too, so I may just end up with a nail board, very simple,yet effective. As soon as I think I have enough cash another bill or unexpected repair comes up or worse I run low on essential pyro chem.

[Thanke]

If you want precision, why bother with quickmatch at all? It is going to introduce some unknown error into every shot. While it wont be a lot, it adds up if you're really trying to choreograph something. I'd e-match directly into the lift if I were going for precision.

 

I was thinking about doing that too, but the sensitivity of match heads scares me a little.

 

This is exactly how to do it if you are using a computer fire system, but if it is a manual system like mine. The milliseconds error of me flipping the switch negates the benefit with ematch in the lift. I use the Talon ignitors attached to paper quick fuse that is right by the lift. The fire has to travel less than an inch on the paper fuse which I think is .5sec a foot burn rate so for all practical purposes it fires instantly when I flip the switch. The nice thing about Talons is that there is no pyrogen involved so you can fuse your items up and store them with the ignitors attached so when you are out in the field you just have to hook things up to your firing system.

 

How do you switch ques on your system? Thank you for the link to Pyro U, I agree it's a good site for information, however i find it not to be organized very well. It's been around for a long time, I think the owner has just got too busy with school and finding a job, which I can relate to.

 

I set mine up with 5 slats (yes they are baking pans, but they work well and where the right price) each of which has two banks of 20cues, so each slat has 40 cues on it.

 

Both my bank switches and cue switches are on-off-(momentary on) meaning that I can either push the switch up and then it bounces back down, or I can flip the switch down and it stays down. This gives me a lot more flexibility then the systems that use rotary switches because I can flip bank switch A, C,E.G,I down so they are all on, and fire cue 1 which will fire cue 1 on all 5 slats. This allows me to fire fronts with one flip of the switch. Or I can flip Cue 1 down so it stays on and push Bank A, C,E,G,I up and get a chasing effect from left to right.

 

For my private show this year, I ended up with way more scripting then I have done before and will end up using 434 Talons. I'm setting all my slats up in the middle of my front and using 10c slat cables to scab in from the right and left. This allows me to have all 200 cues available by me running cues 1-20 on each bank. When I get to cue 20, I turn the bank off that I'm on and head on to the next. It's either going to be my best work yet, or a complete disaster. We'll see.

 

You'll get use to the PyroU forum after awhile. Its just like learning anything else that is new.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Thanke

[Vrizla]

I was thinking about doing that too, but the sensitivity of match heads scares me a little. I may do that with some of my homemade cakes and mines using disposable tubes, but for display shells I feel more comfortable lowering it in the mortar then sticking e-match into pipe tube. I'm not at the point where I can choreograph a show I just want it to be more organized then usual. Planning on starting with open shoot, then do my show, then end night with another open shoot for late arrivals. Unfortunately I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to electric diagrams, I have been reading various sites info, but if I decide to tweak the design a little I'm lost if I should change size of diodes resistors and wire. I can read logic gates and flow charts, I should be able to read an electric diagram, but I'm still learning. Ct cut funding for state universities so I'm really tight on cash too, so I may just end up with a nail board, very simple,yet effective. As soon as I think I have enough cash another bill or unexpected repair comes up or worse I run low on essential pyro chem.

was full quote

 

Thanke,

Thanks for all the diagrams and info. Eventually I do want to use software to choreograph the show I'm not at that point right now. I'm not putting down the style ignitors you are talking about I have used them many times, I'm just not a big fan. E-matches are pretty much standard for professional displays some people still like the rush of lighting with a flare being at ground zero, I'm just still working my way up to the professional display level. I have used all methods listed with the exception of using a PC. I prefer e-matches out of all methods of ignition. Well, that's not entirely true I do like using a flare for some things, but since a lot of my shell's and other items are homegrown I like to make sure I'm a safe distance away until I know they are working how I want them to. The reason I prefer e-matches is they ignite really fast, a lot of purchased 1.3 items are e-match ready and I can make them at a very low cost. I don't like the clip style because they are very brittle, the elastic breaks easily and its hard to tell if you have a firm grip around the fuse. I'm not putting them down, they just aren't my personal favorite. Thanks again for all the links and hopefully I will have time to put together a nice system. If not a nail board is very effective, simple, fast and a heck of a lot more reliable then that piece of crap I bought last year!

[Thanke]

was full quote

 

Thanke,

Thanks for all the diagrams and info. Eventually I do want to use software to choreograph the show I'm not at that point right now. I'm not putting down the style ignitors you are talking about I have used them many times, I'm just not a big fan. E-matches are pretty much standard for professional displays some people still like the rush of lighting with a flare being at ground zero, I'm just still working my way up to the professional display level. I have used all methods listed with the exception of using a PC. I prefer e-matches out of all methods of ignition. Well, that's not entirely true I do like using a flare for some things, but since a lot of my shell's and other items are homegrown I like to make sure I'm a safe distance away until I know they are working how I want them to. The reason I prefer e-matches is they ignite really fast, a lot of purchased 1.3 items are e-match ready and I can make them at a very low cost. I don't like the clip style because they are very brittle, the elastic breaks easily and its hard to tell if you have a firm grip around the fuse. I'm not putting them down, they just aren't my personal favorite. Thanks again for all the links and hopefully I will have time to put together a nice system. If not a nail board is very effective, simple, fast and a heck of a lot more reliable then that piece of crap I bought last year!

 

It sounds like you have only had experience with the first generation of Talon ignitors. The hard to open clips and breaking rubber bands have been remedied. I was assuming you were shooting 1.4 items with homemade stuff sprinkled in. The Talons are way easier to connect to visco and fast fuse. Ematch is definitely the way to go when shooting 1.3. It would take twice as long to wire 1.3 with Talons then it would to slip an ematch into the port.

 

Best of luck with your firing system and or nail board and stay safe.

Thanke

[dagabu]

 

It sounds like you have only had experience with the first generation of Talon ignitors. The hard to open clips and breaking rubber bands have been remedied. I was assuming you were shooting 1.4 items with homemade stuff sprinkled in. The Talons are way easier to connect to visco and fast fuse. Ematch is definitely the way to go when shooting 1.3. It would take twice as long to wire 1.3 with Talons then it would to slip an ematch into the port.

 

Best of luck with your firing system and or nail board and stay safe.

Thanke

 

Also, the small wireless modules used for items that are far away from the main line cannot fire Talons due to the greater need for power and longer duration of the "burn".

 

-dag