My Red Gum Dragon Eggs - No NC!

[usapyro]

Made some dragon eggs today using a formula modification I thought up last night. I don't like working with acetone so don't even mention it or NC. The KClO4/Red Gum is an attempt to replicate the smoldering boost of NC... So far it works great!!! I wish I had a video... If you take a pen torch to the corner of a unprimed 4mm piece the fire will spread until the entire thing is glowing... Then around a second later... BLAM ears ringing!

 

The dragon eggs need to be 4+ mm to work properly with 100 - +200 mesh Magnalium. Damn they are loud... I am going to try -325 mesh MgAl when I get around to it to see if I can get 1-2mm ones to explode. If that doesn't work ill lower the KClO4/red gum a little... Or maybe up the Bismuth... Delay on these is up to 3 seconds on the ground, and around 2 seconds when shot out of a fountain at 5mm it appears.

 

One interesting thing was that making a pile of around 10 of the 1-2mm unprimed pieces and lighting them... The entire thing would reach glowing together and explode in one bang. By themselves they would just glow and go out.

 

Red Gum Crackling Stars

Bismuth Trioxide 37.5g

CuO 37.5g

MGAL 25g

KCL04 +7g (Decided upon KClO4 because it's got less incompatibilities/sensitivity than nitrate or chlorate.)

Red Gum +6g - Binder (Alcohol)

 

Silicon Prime

Black Powder Meal 100g

Dextrin or SGRS +6g - Binder (Water)

Silicon +8g

 

Any comments or tips? I have searched everywhere and no-nc/acetone formulas are nonexistent...

Edited May 25, 2011 by usapyro

[DeepOvertone]

Interesting! I'm going to have try that one out!!. Thanks for the forumla!!

[usapyro]

Your welcome. Also... For best effect roll the comp to the proper thickness with a baking roller and wax paper then slice...

Or the other method of pressing a patty and carefully breaking it up also works. It needs that higher compression...

 

Interesting! I'm going to have try that one out!!. Thanks for the forumla!!

[dagabu]

Made some dragon eggs today using a formula modification I thought up last night. I don't like working with acetone so don't even mention it or NC. The KClO4/Red Gum is an attempt to replicate the smoldering boost of NC... So far it works great!!! I wish I had a video... If you take a pen torch to the corner of a unprimed 4mm piece the fire will spread until the entire thing is glowing... Then around a second later... BLAM ears ringing!

 

The dragon eggs need to be 4+ mm to work properly with 100 - +200 mesh Magnalium. Damn they are loud... I am going to try -325 mesh MgAl when I get around to it to see if I can get 1-2mm ones to explode. If that doesn't work ill lower the KClO4/red gum a little... Or maybe up the Bismuth... Delay on these is up to 3 seconds on the ground, and around 2 seconds when shot out of a fountain at 5mm it appears.

 

One interesting thing was that making a pile of around 10 of the 1-2mm unprimed pieces and lighting them... The entire thing would reach glowing together and explode in one bang. By themselves they would just glow and go out.

 

Red Gum Crackling Stars

Bismuth Trioxide 37.5g

CuO 37.5g

MGAL 25g

KCL04 +7g (Decided upon KClO4 because it's got less incompatibilities/sensitivity than nitrate or chlorate.)

Red Gum +6g - Binder (Alcohol)

 

Silicon Prime

Black Powder Meal 100g

Dextrin or SGRS +6g - Binder (Water)

Silicon +8g

 

Any comments or tips? I have searched everywhere and no-nc/acetone formulas are nonexistent...

 

I gotta ask, why the aversion to NCL or Acetone? CuO and KCL04 have worse reps then Acetone does.

 

-dag

[usapyro]

KClO4 isn't that hazardous.

 

http://www.axxousa.c...sp/kclo4_p.html

 

"Section XI. Toxicological Infomation

• RTECS Number: SC9700000
• Routes of Exposure: Eye contact. Ingestion. Inhalation. Skin contact.
• Toxicity Data: Orl-Rat LD50: 2100 mg/kg Ipr-Mus LD50: 551 mg/kg
• Chronic Toxic Effects: This product has no known chronic effects. Repeated or prolong exposure to this compound is not known to aggravate medical conditions.
• Acute Toxic Effects: Irritating to the skin and eyes on contact. Inhalation will cause irritation to the lungs and mucus membrane. Irritation to the eyes will cause watering and redness. Reddening, scaling, and itching are characteristics of skin inflammation. Follow safe industrial hygiene practices and always wear protective equipment when handling this compound."

CuO can easily be controlled with a dust mask and gloves. It's so heavy that it never sends up very much dust at all.

 

Acetone is a pain in the neck because you need to be outdoors and have a full gas mask practically...

 

Also, I don't care for the mixing process... Mixtures you can simply wet are much easier than ones you have to knead.

 

And last but not least... It's not that easy to get each batch exactly the same... The whole NC/Acetone ratio to dry mix ratio is like a balancing act...

 

 

I gotta ask, why the aversion to NCL or Acetone? CuO and KCL04 have worse reps then Acetone does.

 

-dag

Edited May 26, 2011 by usapyro

[usapyro]

Quick update... I think it might be a good idea to wax coat these dragon egg cores before priming. I happened to add a touch too much water to the prime and ruined the reliability of a batch...

 

All were going off perfect and LOUD until the over-wetted BP prime in the star roller... Hmmm... It can be done with a BP-silicone prime it just has to be done "very" carefully... Stupid nitrate absorbing cores...

 

They work fine unprimed in fountains.

 

This is where NC makes things slightly easier... It keep nitrates and water and stuff out of the cracking star pretty well... Could just coat them with NC to seal them instead of wax with a hot prime... Hehe... At least I don't have to knead the damn stuff...

Edited May 26, 2011 by usapyro

[hst45]

Red Gum Crackling Stars

Bismuth Trioxide 37.5g

CuO 37.5g

MGAL 25g

KCL04 +7g (Decided upon KClO4 because it's got less incompatibilities/sensitivity than nitrate or chlorate.)

Red Gum +6g - Binder (Alcohol)

 

 

I'm familiar with lead tetraoxide and with bismuth subcarbonate being used for dragon eggs, but I haven't run across bismouth trioxide used for them. Have I missed something?

[Mumbles]

Yes, you have. I really don't know how long bismuth has been a staple in dragons eggs, but I'd guess going on 15-20 years. There is a formula given for them in BAFN 3 on page 9 (possibly by a member here). It was published in 1995, and covers 1990-1995.

[BJV]

Yes, you have. I really don't know how long bismuth has been a staple in dragons eggs, but I'd guess going on 15-20 years. There is a formula given for them in BAFN 3 on page 9 (possibly by a member here). It was published in 1995, and covers 1990-1995.

 

It was me

BJV

[hst45]

Mumbles, I know of bismuth subcarbonate in dragon eggs, I was specificailly asking about bismuth tetraoxide. I'm not sure if my nomenclature is wrong or if it's a different compound. My records show 75% bismuth subcarbonate, 15% MgAl, 10% copper oxide. I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

[Mumbles]

I was talking about bismuth trioxide. Bismuth subcarbonate is a pretty recent thing. I still remember when Skylighter first got it and was having contest I believe for someone to figure out a formula. I tried one based on equimolar amounts of the subcarbonate vs. the trioxide and was not impressed. It turns out, my formula was almost exactly what they published some time later. I clearly was not using enough NC lacquer.

[killforfood]

And last but not least... It's not that easy to get each batch exactly the same... The whole NC/Acetone ratio to dry mix ratio is like a balancing act...

This is the confusing part to me as well. Notice the formula below says "add +10 or so NC"

 

I found this very helpful thread but I still think it could use some added clarity for us newbs.

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/dragonseggs.html

 

Notice the formula below says "add +10 or so NC"

 

formula from AFN III

 

Bismuth Trioxide 81.8

Magnalium, granular, -100 mesh 9.1

Copper(II) Oxide, black 9.1

 

(add +10 or so NC)

 

This is followed up with this statement,

 

"I bind with a solution of NC (double base smokeless). It doesn't matter how thick the solution is but it does matter that you add about +10 parts to the formula."

 

I assume this means the 10 parts NC does not include the weight of the solvent. Does this mean that you weigh out 10 parts smokeless powder and then thin with acetone, to your liking?

 

Later we read that the ambiguous NC content is rather important.

 

"Note that if you are having difficulties, the first place to start fixing things is here. Many people shirk on the NC solution. Note that the eggs have an added 10% NC."

 

What if I bind with Deft Brushing Lacquer? It contains 10.5% Nitro-Cellulose by weight. Do I use 10X by weight to arrive at the proper weight of Nitro-Cellulose?

 

http://www.deftfinishes.com/trade/sites/default/files/clear_wood_finish_catalog_page.pdf

Edited May 27, 2011 by killforfood

[usapyro]

Yea, it's a real headache... I'm loving these KClO4/Red gum smoulder boosted crackling stars... It's so easy to get them perfectly the same batch after batch. I would assume that they want you to get 10% NC into the stars, but figuring out the right amount of solvent... $(*#*#@

 

During testing I just press a patty that is thicker at the center. Then I break off pieces of different size and thickness for testing. Going to try some variations to my formula next. Higher KClO4 and red gum vs lower.

 

Btw, here is another formula I have found that is untested by me so far. To change it back to normal just remove the KClO4 and Red gum and use +10 NC/Acetone. I don't think I am going to use this formula because it uses too much Bismuth... The other one is cheaper with the high CuO.

 

Red Gum Crackling Stars Extra AL

Bismuth Trioxide 71g

CuO 14g

MgAl 10g

Al (Atomized) 5g

KCl04 +7g

Red Gum +5g - Binder (Alcohol)

 

 

 

This is the confusing part to me as well. Notice the formula below says "add +10 or so NC"

Edited May 28, 2011 by usapyro

[dagabu]

This is the confusing part to me as well. Notice the formula below says "add +10 or so NC"

 

I found this very helpful thread but I still think it could use some added clarity for us newbs.

 

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/dragonseggs.html

 

Notice the formula below says "add +10 or so NC"

 

formula from AFN III

 

Bismuth Trioxide 81.8

Magnalium, granular, -100 mesh 9.1

Copper(II) Oxide, black 9.1

 

(add +10 or so NC)

 

This is followed up with this statement,

 

"I bind with a solution of NC (double base smokeless). It doesn't matter how thick the solution is but it does matter that you add about +10 parts to the formula."

 

I assume this means the 10 parts NC does not include the weight of the solvent. Does this mean that you weigh out 10 parts smokeless powder and then thin with acetone, to your liking?

 

Later we read that the ambiguous NC content is rather important.

 

"Note that if you are having difficulties, the first place to start fixing things is here. Many people shirk on the NC solution. Note that the eggs have an added 10% NC."

 

What if I bind with Deft Brushing Lacquer? It contains 10.5% Nitro-Cellulose by weight. Do I use 10X by weight to arrive at the proper weight of Nitro-Cellulose?

 

http://www.deftfinishes.com/trade/sites/default/files/clear_wood_finish_catalog_page.pdf

 

Yes, 10% "or so" is by dry weight. 90g of Acetone and 10g of double base smokeless powder will make 100g of a 10% solution. Your DEFT lacquer will also be a 10% solution. That means that you should add 11g of the solid or 110g of the solution to the above formula.

 

Think about it this way: 100g of the dry ingredients plus 100g of the solution = 200g. That is what you are looking for.

 

-dag

[DanielC]

Yes, 10% "or so" is by dry weight. 90g of Acetone and 10g of double base smokeless powder will make 100g of a 10% solution. Your DEFT lacquer will also be a 10% solution. That means that you should add 11g of the solid or 110g of the solution to the above formula.

 

Think about it this way: 100g of the dry ingredients plus 100g of the solution = 200g. That is what you are looking for.

 

-dag

 

 

Thanks for the info. I do a lot of finishing work so I have plenty of high solids NC lacquer, but I wasn't sure if it would work the same. One quick question, could I use lacquer thinner in place of the acetone or would it cause problems with the other ingredients. The "cleanup" thinner I use is not very hot so it would not evaporate nearly as fast as the acetone.

[mabuse00]

Hi,

 

did anybody figure out which kind of fuel the perchlorate helps to burn in the smouldering stage?

The redgum or rather some of the MgAl?

 

I just tried some really large eggs with the lead formulas from Best AFN III and while using 70mesh MgAl & Dextrine they seemed to smoulder forever, one went of after I left the place. Must been a full minute or longer, but made a nice bang.

They seem to need a little assistance without NC.

[PyroAce]

This discussion was furthered here: http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6209-usapyros-no-nc-dragon-eggs/

[FlaMtnBkr]

If the delay is too long, then you want to use finer MgAl. This will speed up the smolder phase. The nice thing about MgAl is that it crushes easily so if you don't have finer stuff you can grind some with a mortar & pestle or put some in some type of blender or ball mill. I use 200 mesh in a more conventional formula with great results.

 

I would think any fuel will burn once lit. The MgAl might take a little longer as it has to melt first and then the magnesium is supposed to burn mainly during the smolder phase. The aluminum is supposed to be what reacts in the flash phase or the explosion.

 

 

 

 

 

Hi,

 

did anybody figure out which kind of fuel the perchlorate helps to burn in the smouldering stage?

The redgum or rather some of the MgAl?

 

I just tried some really large eggs with the lead formulas from Best AFN III and while using 70mesh MgAl & Dextrine they seemed to smoulder forever, one went of after I left the place. Must been a full minute or longer, but made a nice bang.

They seem to need a little assistance without NC.

[mabuse00]

If the delay is too long, then you want to use finer MgAl. This will speed up the smolder phase

And make them pop early...

 

I would think any fuel will burn once lit

There seems to be a way to let the smouldering propagate very fast through the eggs without early pops.

 

I wonder if this can be achieved without NC. The very coarse MgAl alone smoulders too slow, I think I will cool out when flying through the air.

[psyco_1322]

I was talking about bismuth trioxide. Bismuth subcarbonate is a pretty recent thing. I still remember when Skylighter first got it and was having contest I believe for someone to figure out a formula. I tried one based on equimolar amounts of the subcarbonate vs. the trioxide and was not impressed. It turns out, my formula was almost exactly what they published some time later. I clearly was not using enough NC lacquer.

 

I had the same issue, could get anything close to decent working with subcarbonate. I did get them to start popping once I started adding catalysts, found Iron and Copper Oxides to work well. I think I was also binding with dextrin. Then I got sick of them not working and sold the remaining supply of subcarbonate to a guy.

[WSM]

I wonder how phenolic resin would work in these?!!!

 

WSM

[owenmill]

Can anyone describe how to Wax Coat the Eggs? I can't seem to find anything on the procedural details involving the melting the wax and coating, thanks.

[BJV]

Can anyone describe how to Wax Coat the Eggs? I can't seem to find anything on the procedural details involving the melting the wax and coating, thanks.

Put you dragon eggs in a double boiler and heat over water.

Then shave the wax on to the dragon eggs until they are coated.

BJV