Can you ball mill dry guanidine nitrate and/or nitrocellulose?

[oldguy]

Can you ball mill dry guanidine nitrate and/or nitrocellulose?

If not ……what is the safest way to mix either or both into a composition.

Thanks for any help here.

 

 

[dagabu]

If you understood the risks and had a good place to put your ball mill....

 

I would not but you may do as you wish.

 

-dag

[oldguy]

If you understood the risks and had a good place to put your ball mill....

 

I would not but you may do as you wish.

 

-dag

 

If you would not, neither will I.

So whats the best way to mix either or both into a comp?

I imagine wet is the safest?

[MadMax]

I'm not sure I would go ballmilling NC. I have ground a small amount of it in a mortar & pestle and noticed a series of "mini-detonations" going off as I ground. As for the GN I am not familiar with that one but a look at wikipedia states it has an explosion risk for shock/friction/etc

 

"May explosively decompose on shock, friction, or concussion."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guanidine_nitrate#Safety

 

Might I ask what you are making? It sounds like you are trying to manufacture your own smokeless powder or maybe an experimental high energy rocket comp. And perhaps using a low smoke ox to balance the O2? (AP? AN?)

[MadMax]

As far as mixing the 2 here's an idea... You wouldn't want to go heating them as NC has a crazy low decomp temp (like 150 or something). NC is soluble in acetone but not water. GN is soluble in water. Acetone and water are miscible so perhaps you could have a saturated solution of NC in warm acetone (lacquer) and a saturated solution of GN in warm water and mix the two in an agitator and evap off the liquids at just above room temp.

 

Or if you have trouble with that another way I have "faked" mixing 2 things together in solution is take the liquid mix and spray it on a mirror, fast-dry it, then scrape it off with a razor.

[oldguy]

Might I ask what you are making?

 

Trying to come up with a LOW SMOKE fusee / flare composition.

[oldguy]

NC is soluble in acetone but not water. GN is soluble in water. Acetone and water are miscible so perhaps you could have a saturated solution of NC in warm acetone (lacquer) and a saturated solution of GN in warm water and mix the two in an agitator and evap off the liquids at just above room temp.

 

Thanks, that sounds workable.

[Mumbles]

Typically they would be mixed with a screen. I'd stick with SS only. Guanidine nitrate is known to be fairly corrosive, and a bit hygroscopic. This of course requires powdered or at least shredded nitrocellulose. NC can be shredded by rubbing it through screens. Commercially it is done is essentially a large blender. A book like PATR2700 or Urbanski should have details. I bet powdered product could be made by pouring an acetone solution into well agitated water. Alternatively, you can start from microcrystaline cellulose, if you can find a small quantity source.

 

For better intimacy, you could partly wet the comp with acetone and kneed it all together. Again, the above books would likely have some information on the preparation of smokeless propellants, which may give you some ideas.

[MadMax]

For high illumination or color?

 

Trying to come up with a LOW SMOKE fusee / flare composition.

[oldguy]

For high illumination or color?

 

 

Both my adult boys work in the high artic, one on oil, the other diamonds.

 

Winters are often -50 F, without figuring wind chill. Things get frosty & freeze up.

 

Sometimes they have to illuminate and/or heat or ignite things in tight confined quarters.

Color doesn’t matter, but white light is preferable.

So, I am trying to come up with a hot burning, low smoke fairly non-toxic fusee comp for them.

 

LOL, low smoke, hot burning & slow burning together are tough nuts to figure out.

 

 

[MadMax]

I just tested something and think I may have found something that might work for you. I took ordinary 70/30 fp and slowed it down considerably with graphite powder. This ensured they stayed bright burning. I then took a good bit of NC cotton and wet it up with acetone until it became a sludgy mess. Then I kneaded the powder into the sludge until it got clay-like adding a tad more acetone. I pressed this clay into a tube and squeezed out a cylinder of the stuff. It dried to a hard. It burned quite bright and the smoke was minimal.

 

You could probably sub some of all of the KClO4 with NH4ClO4 or NH4NO3 to make it even more smoke free. Good luck buddy I hope you can use this.

 

 

Both my adult boys work in the high artic, one on oil, the other diamonds.

 

Winters are often -50 F, without figuring wind chill. Things get frosty & freeze up.

 

Sometimes they have to illuminate and/or heat or ignite things in tight confined quarters.

Color doesn't matter, but white light is preferable.

So, I am trying to come up with a hot burning, low smoke fairly non-toxic fusee comp for them.

 

LOL, low smoke, hot burning & slow burning together are tough nuts to figure out.

 

 

[oldguy]

Thanks MM, I am waiting for a supply of AP to arrive. Then, I will be on it.

[alkaline]

Thanks MM, I am waiting for a supply of AP to arrive. Then, I will be on it.

 

Similar topics arose from time to time @SM.The consensus seemed to be as above. use a NC solvent compatible w/NG.Mill ,or knead and granulate..Screens to cheese graders might work but thoroughly kneading the composition is essential.

 

Have you ever seen via pics old turn of the century milling(kneading) machines for dynamite?A large rubber faced heavy wheel running in a groove on an axle that ran around in circles all day working the NG into the guhr(diamataceous clay)

 

One of the first HE artillery shell fillers was very similar, picric acid/wax milled and grained then pressed into the shell to a high density,actually higher than if cast into place!