Benzolift reversed = Boosting lift?

[Pechovski]

Hi, i had my first few shells shot a couple of days ago. Im currently at my limit at making good BP lift it seems (tried ratios, milling time, load, media wieght), using amounts at 12-15% rather then 10% did not make much difference and using more would just make my BP consumption go sky high.

So i started looking into Benzolift and im starting to have regrets already, having something that hits your shells that hard kinda feels like wishing for a flowerpot. I am also looking over my shells OD and height, still if that wont solve my problem i would like to have a backup plan instead of starting the hunt to buy or build a better ballmill. Im also testing another type of charcoal right now..

 

I noticed a thread at passfire with my guest account, talking about boosting BP lift, one user said that adding a little whistle (improvised benzolift) could work. So that made me start thinking about reversing the Benzolift, changing the whistle and meal around to 30/70 or maybe just boosting the meal with small amount wet whistle paste in the granulating process. The whistle would be diapered safely and then mixed with water (alcohol?) to a paste (or rather a solution because of the small amount of whistle), slowly adding the meal and worked to a dough to then granulate through mesh . Anyone have any suggestions regarding this? I really dont want something devastating as benzolift, just getting my 10% lift and i be happy.

 

Im finding no real information about this, so as a newbie im asking you guys (and girls if there are any). And as said im only looking into to this because of my limitations of having/obtaining a proper ballmill right now, cutting down the 15-24h ballmilling time and ending up with more lift with the help of chemicals i already posses large amounts of.

 

//Puti

[Xtreme Pyro]

Hi, i had my first few shells shot a couple of days ago. Im currently at my limit at making good BP lift it seems (tried ratios, milling time, load, media wieght), using amounts at 12-15% rather then 10% did not make much difference and using more would just make my BP consumption go sky high.

So i started looking into Benzolift and im starting to have regrets already, having something that hits your shells that hard kinda feels like wishing for a flowerpot. I am also looking over my shells OD and height, still if that wont solve my problem i would like to have a backup plan instead of starting the hunt to buy or build a better ballmill. Im also testing another type of charcoal right now..

 

I noticed a thread at passfire with my guest account, talking about boosting BP lift, one user said that adding a little whistle (improvised benzolift) could work. So that made me start thinking about reversing the Benzolift, changing the whistle and meal around to 30/70 or maybe just boosting the meal with small amount wet whistle paste in the granulating process. The whistle would be diapered safely and then mixed with water (alcohol?) to a paste (or rather a solution because of the small amount of whistle), slowly adding the meal and worked to a dough to then granulate through mesh . Anyone have any suggestions regarding this? I really dont want something devastating as benzolift, just getting my 10% lift and i be happy.

 

Im finding no real information about this, so as a newbie im asking you guys (and girls if there are any). And as said im only looking into to this because of my limitations of having/obtaining a proper ballmill right now, cutting down the 15-24h ballmilling time and ending up with more lift with the help of chemicals i already posses large amounts of.

 

//Puti

 

Personally, I don't like the idea of adding whistle to the lift charge in any amount.. Why not just try to perfect your current BP? Practice makes perfect.

 

• What kind of charcoal are you using?
• How pure are your chemicals?
• How much media are you using?

 

I still use my 6lb harbor freight tumbler with a few wraps of tape around the rollers to speed up the RPM really helps. If you use a reactive charcoal such as paulownia, willow, or balsa you should get nice results.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Xtreme Pyro

[Algenco]

I agree with XP, your giving up without giving us a chance to help you improve your BP.

 

Our Club has an informal BP competition, I made a batch in a 3# HF mill in 2 hours that has yet to be beaten.

 

We can help

[MadMax]

Kaputchi,

 

Adding stuff to BP is kind of like admitting defeat. Ideally your BP should be so fast that you actually have to pull back the reigns slow it down. I'll tell you a few of my techniques in hopes that it might help. When I first started making bp I was gung-ho about making as much as possible. So I would take a ball mill which could make a max of say 300 grams and I'd put in exactly that much green mix. Then I'd add in enough balls so that the mill was about 1/3 full thinking it was going to really haul ass. Wrong! It took almost twelve hours to get the fineness I expected and having to open it up and knock out the clumps in the corners every couple hours.

 

There were a couple things I did that greatly improved my milling. I took the minimum amount of powder that I thought the mill could handle and cut that number in half (100 grams). Then took what I thought was the maximum weight of media that the ball mill could handle then doubled that. Then I ran it at about 120 rpm's. The ball mill was about half full with lead balls with almost but not quite enough comp to fill the gaps between the balls.

 

The jar I was using had gently contoured edges instead of right angled for powder to clump in and was made of glass to prevent adhesion. (note - this is controversial but I found it to work well and the clarity helped too)

 

The specific shape of the jar physically discouraged the clumping of powder making it possible to mill something indefinitely.

 

My reason for having so much more media then powder was that I found that if there is enough media present the ball-to-ball media interaction becomes significant in addition to the ball-to-jar interaction. More so in fact then the ball to jar interaction. I found that I could mill three batches of powder in much less time then one batch triple the size of the same fineness.

 

The fact is you really do want a lot more media then comp. If you've filled up your mill half way full of media then you want just enough comp to fill the gaps between your media.

 

Another important factor I've found is that after the first hour of milling the milling will become unproductive. The reason for this is the moisture takes over at this point. After the first hour you will want to take out your bp and dry it and then resume milling. Only a dry comp can mill indefinitely from what I've found.

 

Granulating is an entirely different process which has it's own caveats. My finest granular BP which is about 7FA is comparable to flash powder from what I am told.

 

I'm not saying you should do exactly what I'm doing for yours but there are some good things to take from it.

 

1. More media and less comp = finer powder in less time

2. Dry media always mills faster

3. The shape of the jar can be made to promote non clumping and thus effective milling

[Pechovski]

The charcoal used is Vineyard, do not know exactly what it is but it seems to be the most used type of charcoal in regions like Spain, Italy and France. Charcoal´s purity is a wide range, smaller grains could be 83% and bigger up to 99% (that saying there could be anything like 1-17% ashes.)

The KNO3 and Sulfur (and charcoal) is bought by pyrotechnic suppliers, i dont have a exact % of purity but ive requested it and was told its technical grade. Im also trying out some cheap BBQ charcoal now, using the lightest pieces in the bag but the results seem to be the same. One thing that changed with the charcoal was the smell, it actually smelled less with the BBQ both prefire and after.

 

Its 6lb 2 jars type mill, ive managed to get it up to 72rpm (from 60) with help of rubber sleeves. The jar/s is filled with 45% ceramic media (about 1.9-2lb), and then 150g greenmix (2-3% Dextrin). I actually noticed no bigger change in time between 100g and 150g batch, skylighter seemed to suggest 100-127g per jar for that type of mill. I usually mill the powder untill it starts clumping up so bad that i cant mill a couple of minutes before it clumps back up again (15-24H as said). I think i had about 200g buffer before i reached the 6lb limit, its all on paper in my chem dump.

 

The 74/14/12 seemed to give the best results so far (guessing sulfur has small purity issues then?), ill do some more testing it seems. So ill try adding a little more media to get the 50%, lessen the comp (without undercharging i hope), i also want to test the 70/18/12 comp to.. and maybe go with only 1-2% Dex.

 

EDIT: I also forgot to mention that with BP burns with no leftovers and maybe some with BBQ. You could also check the video at the video section (EDIT: I ment the "Aerial Shells" thread".), if you notice anything.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Kaputchi

[Algenco]

Grapevine charcoal is used in those regions because it about the only thing available and can make powder for breaking shells, but I'm not too sure of it's lift capabilities.

Check the list of charcoals and see if there are any good woods available in your area

 

http://creagan.net/fireworks/charcoal_tests.html

[Mumbles]

What size are you granulating the powder to? This has as big of an impact as quality of BP. Also, what size and type of shells are you lifting? Smaller shells, particularly ball shells, require more lift than their larger counterparts. It would not be unheard of to lift a 30g shell with 5 or 6g of lift. Some will claim they can use far less of course.

[Pechovski]

3 inch paper canisters, i granulate/rice through a 8 mesh and sort it out with a 12 after its dry for lift. The rest i used for break and anything going trough a 20mesh i use for something else, dust i re-process. The 8-12 should be good for 3 inches right? Might have read wrong though...

Ive had my thoughts around charcoal but seeing how people get lift out of i.e BBQ kept me going going with what i have. Also the Vineyard is affordable and available

[Mumbles]

What you're using a finer cut of 2FA, but it's still 2FA. I regularly use 20-30g of a similar sized lift for single break 3" canisters, even though they weigh well under 1lb. Try the fraction between 12 and 20. This is equivalent to 4FA and probably more appropriate for lifting those shells. With larger shells, you need less and less. The rule of thumb is 1oz of 2FA per pound up to 10lbs, and then 1/2oz per pound after that. It equates to a bit more than 6% by weight for shells under 1lb. However it is regular practice to round up to the nearest pound, or at least half pound.

 

Your lift sounds perfectly fine to me, you're just seeing that small shells need relatively more lift with the size. If you move to the finer granulation, you can probably get away with using 10% or so. I use 4FA for 3" and below, and 2FA for everything larger, or 3" multibreaks.

[Arthur]

The only mortar that I have ever seen unroll was caused by boosted lift. The GRP tube simply broke into small pieces. The distances were OK so nobody was hurt that time but please don't try to repeat that.

 

It's really important that you get your BP right. It's the tried and trusted material for lift, burst, and fuses so you really NEED it 1/Right, and 2/consistent.

 

75: 15 :10 is a perfectly acceptable starting mix ratio, it will in fact do for everything (though maybe not optimally).

The modern Nitrate and Sulphur is at least as good as when BP was the explosive of the Military, the charcoal that you use is important (in the UK the top choice is fresh willow growth as thick as a finger or thumb, and that debarked and charcoaled is the best and easiest I've ever used (Thank you Seymour)) Do NOT economise on charcoal use good stuff.

 

weigh it out and mill for ever then press and corn it or damp and granulate it.

 

My mix is 75;15;10 + 3 parts of dextrin all thrown in the mill and milled for 6 hours for best effect. The dextrin reacts with water to help the granules to bind.

 

Once it's made DRY it wet powder is no good. Dry a sample to constant weight, then let it stabilise naturally, it should take up about 1% moisture that is a good amount.

 

Small shells DO need a lot of good lift compared to larger shells. In fact the lift I use for 6" shells barely pops 3's out of the tube. but the 6's gently slide down the tube on the way down so there is very little gap. The threes have a much bigger gap so need a LOT more lift in proportion.

[Pechovski]

Thanks a bunch guys, seems i have a little to work with now. Got a couple of ideas, ill try the tips to see if i can shorten my milling time with less load more media (try getting a little more RPM also) and then test a different grade on the lift. You get a little crazy when you read posts "I mill my BP for 3h and have to use less then 10%", while i mill for 15H and use 12-15%. I also would love seeing my BP burn tests go "poof" instead of "woosh" sometime..

[Algenco]

Thanks a bunch guys, seems i have a little to work with now. Got a couple of ideas, ill try the tips to see if i can shorten my milling time with less load more media (try getting a little more RPM also) and then test a different grade on the lift. You get a little crazy when you read posts "I mill my BP for 3h and have to use less then 10%", while i mill for 15H and use 12-15%. I also would love seeing my BP burn tests go "poof" instead of "woosh" sometime..

 

 

I mill for 2hrs and use 8%

[Pechovski]

I mill for 2hrs and use 8%

 

 

Lies!

[dagabu]

I mill for 2hrs and use 8%

 

I mill for 1 hour and use 4%

[Algenco]

ask Nski

[dagabu]

I really have no idea what you two are talking about, what is the % for?

 

-dag

[Pechovski]

Amount of lift

[dagabu]

Amount of lift

 

For? Canister, ball shell?

 

-dag

[Pechovski]

For me its 3" Canister, i dont know what Algenco shoots but i am guessing he is just teasing me hehe

[dagabu]

I know I was

[Pechovski]

I know I was

 

I know you did .

 

Update, when i get this batch done im changing out my media to only using small ones and thus increasing the weight of media. Ive also bumped the RPM to 81 now, ill continue the 150g load with that and see if it helps. If failure decreasing mill time im going down to 100g. I also have got my hands on some Willow charcoal now, that hopefully will help me with the performance.

 

Ill continue updating a little on the results, could be good for other newbies.

[Algenco]

I use 8% BP for lifting 3-6" ball shells and they are still going up when they break Edited April 28, 2011 by Algenco

[dagabu]

Gotcha! 10% BP for lifting canisters of any weight works for me. 4FA for 5" and under, 2FA for the rest*

 

*6" was my largest, first one flower-potted and the second one worked fine but the comets were pretty lame

 

-dag

[dan999ification]

I know you did .

 

Update, when i get this batch done im changing out my media to only using small ones and thus increasing the weight of media. Ive also bumped the RPM to 81 now, ill continue the 150g load with that and see if it helps. If failure decreasing mill time im going down to 100g. I also have got my hands on some Willow charcoal now, that hopefully will help me with the performance.

 

Ill continue updating a little on the results, could be good for other newbies.

 

 

willow is my favourite charcoal [and as has been said is readily available here] for lifting you should see better bp though vineyard or grapevine should be just as good.

i have made lift quality bp in 2 hours aswell with everything optimised its possible but i do make small batches, 10% for cans and same for balls only 3"'s so far. my first shells[1.5"] didnt get much height so as much as 15% was used for the light shell[35-40g]but it gets better over time as you learn more and take the extra care, now 10% is too much and sends them so high you cant really see them so 8% is used to restrict the height.

80 rpm is better i like it just before the media spins with the jar most people use 80 to120rpm.

the quest for better bp never ends for some and is one of the most rewarding parts of the hobby for me small changes can make big differences.

dan.

edit never use whistle spiked lift, you will get there

Edited April 28, 2011 by dan999ification

[Pechovski]

Update: well with the smaller media i am using now and upping the media weight with another 0.3lb (2.2lb @ 81RPM). After 2h i checked and it seemed to progress a lot better, so i checked again after 5h and i had this:

 

 

A nice 150g cookie, first time anything balled up on me.

Doing a burn test after screening it, it sure was faster then before. Think im soon there people