pyrochris Posted August 29, 2006 Posted August 29, 2006 Hi, i recently made black powder for lifting powder, i am trying to get my pieces small but not too small, is there any easy way of getting them just the right size? And what tool should i use. I am following United Nuclears way (using a spagetti strainer) and i am having difficulty with this.
FrankRizzo Posted August 29, 2006 Posted August 29, 2006 The secret is finding the right balance of moisture. You should be able to squeeze the moist powder in your hand while making a fist and produce a hard chunk that snaps cleanly in two. You then take that chunk of powder and press and rub it across a 3 or 4 mesh screen...more pressing than rubbing. Sift out anything that passes 8 mesh for use as burst. Additionally, there's been some discussion on rec.pyrotechnics about binding green mix polverone ingredients with ~20% nitrocellulose or double-base instead of dextrin. It's rumored to make a pretty potent combination.
pyrochris Posted August 29, 2006 Author Posted August 29, 2006 The secret is finding the right balance of moisture. You should be able to squeeze the moist powder in your hand while making a fist and produce a hard chunk that snaps cleanly in two. You then take that chunk of powder and press and rub it across a 3 or 4 mesh screen...more pressing than rubbing. Sift out anything that passes 8 mesh for use as burst. Additionally, there's been some discussion on rec.pyrotechnics about binding green mix polverone ingredients with ~20% nitrocellulose or double-base instead of dextrin. It's rumored to make a pretty potent combination. sorry, i am pretty poor with explainations, so you put a 3-4 mesh screen then under it you put an 8 mesh screen? And where can these be baught?
hst45 Posted August 29, 2006 Posted August 29, 2006 Pyrochris, try this. Make your usual meal powder, and add 5% dextrin. Blend this in well. Wet this with a 70/30 ethanol/water mix mixed to the firm consistancey as FrankRizzo said, and press this through a window screen using a wooden spoon. If the moisture content is correct you'll encounter some resistance pressing this through the screen. Corned powder will pass through the screen onto a pc. of newspaper below. Dry overnight and you'll have lift powder tomorrow.
TheSidewinder Posted August 29, 2006 Posted August 29, 2006 *****SNIP*****Wet this with a 70/30 ethanol/water mix mixed to the firm consistancey as *****SNIP*****That should be 70/30 WATER/ALCOHOL, not the other way around. Too much alcohol will deactivate the Dextrin and it won't bind worth a damn. And personally, I'd stay away from NC as an ingredient in lift. "Potent" is right: Dangerously so, if you use too much. I believe it can actually detonate under the wrong conditions, rather than conflagrate?? In any case, it's not something beginners should experiment with, IMHO. M
pyrochris Posted August 29, 2006 Author Posted August 29, 2006 *****SNIP*****Wet this with a 70/30 ethanol/water mix mixed to the firm consistancey as *****SNIP*****That should be 70/30 WATER/ALCOHOL, not the other way around. Too much alcohol will deactivate the Dextrin and it won't bind worth a damn. And personally, I'd stay away from NC as an ingredient in lift. "Potent" is right: Dangerously so, if you use too much. I believe it can actually detonate under the wrong conditions, rather than conflagrate?? In any case, it's not something beginners should experiment with, IMHO. M haha, believe me i am far from a beginner with chemicals. Just needed some help for lift, btw, anyone have places where i can get mesh screens?
pyrochris Posted August 29, 2006 Author Posted August 29, 2006 Just use a damn window screen. well, i would if it was that easy. Im looking for something small lol, not something i have to destroy to use.
pyrochris Posted August 29, 2006 Author Posted August 29, 2006 ok, hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. I took a picture of my dry lift powder ( some pieces are bigger than others) and i would like some input on this and what i can do to improve it! Quick question, will this still work?
Mumbles Posted August 29, 2006 Posted August 29, 2006 With no point of reference, it's impossible to tell how big that is. Anyway, you don't have to destroy a window screen to use it. I really have no idea what you're talking about. Anyway at some hardware stores they sell 4x4 hardware cloth. It's a 4 mesh screen. This is a good place to start. Say what passes the 4 mesh screen and sits on the 16 mesh window screen would be good for lift. That would be good.
hst45 Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 TheSideWinder, that's not a misprint on my part; I use 70%ethanol to 30% water. i haven't experienced a problem with this corning a nice, strong powder, and the ethanol evaporates and dries the powder overnight. This powder works well as lift, and I also use it in a BP revolver, with great results.
pyrochris Posted August 30, 2006 Author Posted August 30, 2006 With no point of reference, it's impossible to tell how big that is. Anyway, you don't have to destroy a window screen to use it. I really have no idea what you're talking about. Anyway at some hardware stores they sell 4x4 hardware cloth. It's a 4 mesh screen. This is a good place to start. Say what passes the 4 mesh screen and sits on the 16 mesh window screen would be good for lift. That would be good. ok, sorry for not comparing to something, hopefully this will help a little bit
pyrochris Posted August 30, 2006 Author Posted August 30, 2006 That looks pretty good so would this make decent lift powder for 2"ers?
hst45 Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Looks pretty good. Maybe a little coarse for 2" but it shoud be o.k. For 2", with un-proven powder, I'd try about 10% lift-to-shell ratio. That's probably overkill, but I'd opt for potential over-power to ensure good height, and time for your time fuse to pass fire. Good luck!
pyrochris Posted August 30, 2006 Author Posted August 30, 2006 Looks pretty good. Maybe a little coarse for 2" but it shoud be o.k. For 2", with un-proven powder, I'd try about 10% lift-to-shell ratio. That's probably overkill, but I'd opt for potential over-power to ensure good height, and time for your time fuse to pass fire. Good luck! thanks, i used 15% just to make sure, although i would love to go outside and test a dummy, people around here would call the cops sadly.
pyrochris Posted August 30, 2006 Author Posted August 30, 2006 Tell them your car back fired. haha, ill try that! Ill do it tomorrow, sadly its been raining here for 5 days
Mumbles Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Raining is the best time. They might just think it's thunder or whatnot. People won't want to come outside and see what is going on either. It makes it harder to see whats going on too.
TheSidewinder Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 TheSideWinder, that's not a misprint on my part; I use 70%ethanol to 30% water. i haven't experienced a problem with this corning a nice, strong powder, and the ethanol evaporates and dries the powder overnight. This powder works well as lift, and I also use it in a BP revolver, with great results. Are you pressing and corning your BP, as is done commercially, or just ricing it after milling? Your first post uses the term "corning", which is very different from just pressing it through a screen. If you are actually pressing and corning, you don't need the Dextrin in the first place, at least from what I'm told. And if that's true, it doesn't matter what you wet it with. Pure alcohol would work just as well. But if you are ballmilling and then ricing it, you need SOME type of binder, and adding that much alcohol WILL deactivate Dextrin, according to all I've read, heard, and experienced. I don't know about other binders. As to personal experience: On three batches I made last year, I used a 50% alcohol mix and it produced BP grains that, once dried, crumbled under moderate pressure from two fingers. When I went to 10% alcohol, it made grains that I could NOT crush in my fingers. The only difference was the percentage of alcohol to water. I milled all the ingredients together, including the Dextrin, for 24 hours, then riced it through a 20-mesh screen. My observations are backed up by what other Guildmembers have said as well, so I guess I'm confused how you can get good hard grains with that much alcohol. HOWEVER.... as with most things pyro, if it works for you, no need to change it. M
hst45 Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 (edited) My terminology is apparently incorrect, for which I apologize. I am in fact merely pressing this through a screen. My process is as follows. I mill my KNO3/Poplar charcoal/sulfur/dextrin in 15/3/2/1 ratio. As you can see, its just standard 75/15/10, plus an additional 5% dextrin. I ball mill this in small 210 gram batchs for 6 hours (lead media). In a glass mixing bowl, I add aproximatly two wooden spoons of this powder (VERY high-tech measurement ) I then add my 70/30 mix from a spray bottle and mix with the 'afore-mentioned spoon until a nice hard paste is produced. This I then press it through a piece of aluminum window screen stretched on a homemade wooden frame. That's right, with that same damned wooden spoon! My theory, however flawed, was that the ethanol would reduce the drying time, so the KNO3 has less time to leach out and recrystalize. The finished powder is easy to handle, but I grant you that it is quite easy to crush the grains into smaller sizes. They don't crumble into dust, but they do break down fairly easily into several smaller sized grains. Thank you for the correction, and for the info. While I have you here, what are your thoughts as to the pros and cons of pressing-cakes-then-crushing compared to the press-through-screen method? Oh, by the way, if you use a wooden spoon from the wife's kitchen, you'd better plan on getting her a new one. (Ask me how i know) It's o.k. though, she has a birthday coming up! Edited August 30, 2006 by hst45
Ozzy Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 You really dont need alcohol do you?. Isnt it just to speed up the drying time, ive always used water.
pyrochris Posted August 30, 2006 Author Posted August 30, 2006 You really dont need alcohol do you?. Isnt it just to speed up the drying time, ive always used water. by how much? my powder dried overnight.
hst45 Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 Yes I DO need alcohol..... Oh, you mean for the POWDER. TheSideWinder know better than I, but for me yes the ethanol is included primarily to speed drying. See post above for my rationale.
Mumbles Posted August 30, 2006 Posted August 30, 2006 That ratio 15:3:2:.5 is only 2.5% dextrin. For granulating I don't feel a need to use alcohol at all, expecially if ricing. The granules are small enough and have a high enough surface area, the need for an increased drying speed isn't really needed I don't feel. With just pure water, the granules dry rock hard, and are dry within a day and a half or so.
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