"Dark Salutes" Pretty Amazing

[ghost808]

I don't know if anyone has seen these before but i think its something cool to check out. I found this video a few days ago. This guy has very amazing rockets that are known to many. I personally idolize this guy somewhat. Anyways the salutes are at 2Minutes 10 Seconds. 2:10

 

 

 

According to Dave the formula for these salutes are

 

4 PPW - Potassium Chlorate

1 PPW - Sulfur

1 PPW - Antimony(III) Sulfide.

+1% - Barium Carbonate (May or may not be necessary)

 

 

PPW= Parts per Weight (Just saying)

 

This does sound like a pretty dangerous formula

If anyone has these chemicals readily available can you try to make a video or test this out to see how it works? Or can anyone explain to me how this is a "DARK" salute. I mean i understand that it doesn't flash but mainly how it works!

Pretty amazing to me!

Edited January 13, 2011 by ghost808

[Ralph]

I have these chems and can make a video for you if you really like (though will only burn it unconfined)

 

the barium carbonate is only present to help neutralise any acid personally I would chose a carbonate that is a poorer emitter such as strontium carbonate or potassium carbonate though with such a tiny amount I doubt it matters

 

its dark because none of the reaction products are easily excited in a way which makes them give off light there is nothing to give any glow

 

EDIT this mixture is experimentally dangerous it has the worst of both worlds it is both extremely friction and impact sensitive unlike most comps that contain one or the other

Edited January 13, 2011 by Ralph

[TSO]

Could you make the formula a little safer using KCLO4 in place of the KCLO3?

[50AE]

Yeah, quite sensitive formula. It can however be handled safely, but it would be wise to avoid it, and only very experienced pyros should handle it.

[Ralph]

Could you make the formula a little safer using KCLO4 in place of the KCLO3?

 

you could mabey try things before you speak kclo4 sulfur and at burn slowly the milky flame lingers for quite a while

[Bonny]

you could mabey try things before you speak kclo4 sulfur and at burn slowly the milky flame lingers for quite a while

 

WTF is that supposed to mean? C'mon Ralph, at least try to put "some" punctuation into your posts.

[pyrochris732]

I thought cplmac was the master of rockets?

[Ralph]

WTF is that supposed to mean? C'mon Ralph, at least try to put "some" punctuation into your posts.

 

sorry missed a comma

 

You could mabey try things before you speak, kclo4 sulfur and at burn slowly the milky flame lingers for quite a while.

[dagabu]

I thought cplmac was the master of rockets?

 

I think that Dan Thames has passed cplmac in that endeavor. Dan is working on lifting a 12" shell.

[Mumbles]

I say we need a dual between cplmac, Dan, and TR to prove once and for all the real master. Dan may be working on taking up a 12", but cpl has done it several times in the past with ease. I bet if he clustered them, he could take up a 24" shell.

 

Ralph, burning it unconfined will do nothing. These types of mixes burn pretty slow compared to flash in the open. Traditionally the formulas are used for shots in crossettes. In the above video, I bet the inserts are not much bigger than a decent sized crossette shot. As others have said, I'd stay away from them until you have quite a bit of experience. I'm talking a decade, not a year. There are very few people here that I would be comfortable knowing they were going to experiment with such a mix in any sort of real salute. I suspect the property Ralph mentioned was burning on it's own. If confined it would probably salute, but would really be no safer than a chlorate mix assuming pure chemicals.

 

I don't think the type of carbonate matters much. I may stay away from potassium carbonate though, it is quite a bit more basic than most others and could cause problems of it's own. Strontium would probably be the least bright, but may also turn what little light there is pink, where barium would keep it white.

[Ralph]

Ralph, burning it unconfined will do nothing. These types of mixes burn pretty slow compared to flash in the open. Traditionally the formulas are used for shots in crossettes. In the above video,

 

didnt report in a 1/4" tube fused with 3mm Chinese visco chlorate on the other hand does

[dagabu]

I think TRs rockets are marginal at best, JUST the rocket, his headers are incredible though. I still have to see a really nice header on cplmacs rockets so I will stay with Dan for now

[frosty90]

There is others which is 'safer' but still very much sensitive to shock and friction, eg 84 KClO4 16 Sulfur. Others can use rosin or redgum as the fuel. Others tend to run along the lines of chlorate/perchlorate with sulfur as the main fuel, then some additives sometimes like charcoal and rosin. None of them burn fast in the open like flash, they only explode in a container (but the container often doesnt have to be much to cause a 'detonation'...)

 

The reason they are 'dark' is really due to the fact that there is no aluminium in it. There is light output, but it is so small that at a distance it is impossible to notice. Burning in the open seems to give more light than in confinement too. I reckon, but I might be wrong, that the reaction that causes it to explode is between sulfur in a vapourised or liquid form. This also explains why other compositions which have low melting point fules are often so sensitive (potassium benzoate, sulfur, bitumen/hyrocarbons etc, sugar, K ferricyanide, rosin/resin and so on) It seems that when ever there is a low melting/boiling point fuel, the composition becomes much more sensitive and prone to exploding very strongly in confinement, presumably the confinement traps the vapourised fules, which can react with the oxidiser much quicker in gaseous form. This seems consistent with all the sensitive/explosive non metal conatining compositions.

 

didnt report in a 1/4" tube fused with 3mm Chinese visco chlorate on the other hand does

 

In any case there is a miniumum amount that will produce a bang, with the perchlorate comp this amount is higher than with the chlorate comp. Increasing the fuel seems to reduce the critical amount.

Edited January 14, 2011 by frosty90

[Ralph]

There is others which is 'safer' but still very much sensitive to shock and friction, eg 84 KClO4 16 Sulfur. Others can use rosin or redgum as the fuel. Others tend to run along the lines of chlorate/perchlorate with sulfur as the main fuel, then some additives sometimes like charcoal and rosin. None of them burn fast in the open like flash, they only explode in a container (but the container often doesnt have to be much to cause a 'detonation'...)

 

The reason they are 'dark' is really due to the fact that there is no aluminium in it. There is light output, but it is so small that at a distance it is impossible to notice. Burning in the open seems to give more light than in confinement too. I reckon, but I might be wrong, that the reaction that causes it to explode is between sulfur in a vapourised or liquid form. This also explains why other compositions which have low melting point fules are often so sensitive (potassium benzoate, sulfur, bitumen/hyrocarbons etc, sugar, K ferricyanide, rosin/resin and so on) It seems that when ever there is a low melting/boiling point fuel, the composition becomes much more sensitive and prone to exploding very strongly in confinement, presumably the confinement traps the vapourised fules, which can react with the oxidiser much quicker in gaseous form. This seems consistent with all the sensitive/explosive non metal conatining compositions.

 

a good dark salute will have no carbon containing compounds as their reaction products are generally somewhat luminous a more completely dark report can be achieved by excluding them

Edited January 14, 2011 by Ralph

[NightHawkInLight]

If that is the sort of pyro composition needed for dark salutes, it seems to me there has got to be something much safer to handle in the realm of HE. That I suppose may provide its own sort of problems legally. I hear it's been done in the past at various pyro shoots, but at least in MPAG we have a no HE rule. Not that I mind. Dark salutes are cool, but not worth the trouble of HE, or the danger of the nasty comp mentioned. I bet something could be done with a nitrate based comp, if you could find the right fuel and preparation method.

[Ralph]

I bet something could be done with a nitrate based comp, if you could find the right fuel and preparation method.

 

kperc (or probably KNO₃), supper fine Mg, lots of ammonium chloride and (if perchlorate is used)sulfur (to encourage chlorine out of the perc) would if made right be dark would be slightly safer but I doubt developing it would be easy one of those projects you undertake when you have a week off with no plans

 

a starting point would be

55 NH₄Cl

13 Mg

2 Sulfur

30 KClO₄

This mix would become even more dangerous under alkaline conditions and I have no idea if it would report or not

[frosty90]

kperc (or probably KNO₃), supper fine Mg, lots of ammonium chloride and (if perchlorate is used)sulfur (to encourage chlorine out of the perc) would if made right be dark would be slightly safer but I doubt developing it would be easy one of those projects you undertake when you have a week off with no plans

 

a starting point would be

55 NH₄Cl

13 Mg

2 Sulfur

30 KClO₄

This mix would become even more dangerous under alkaline conditions and I have no idea if it would report or not

 

I reckon youd get a good flash of light out of that in anycase. I reckon, to get a loud report, either you need lots of metal and heat (the ammonium chloride would absorb it all, so the reaction would probably be slow, so no bang), or lots of easily vapourised fuel and confinement.

Edited January 14, 2011 by frosty90

[Mumbles]

That mix is a terrible idea. Ammonium chloride attacks magnesium very readily.

[Ralph]

I reckon youd get a good flash of light out of that in anycase. I reckon, to get a loud report, either you need lots of metal and heat (the ammonium chloride would absorb it all, so the reaction would probably be slow, so no bang), or lots of easily vapourised fuel and confinement.

no you wouldnt get light output magnesium chloride emits only in the IR spectrun

 

That mix is a terrible idea. Ammonium chloride attacks magnesium very readily.

 

 

Dichromate treated magnesium ?

 

no traditional chlorine donors not even calomel would work dont know how ammonium perchlorate would behave

 

 

[frosty90]

no you wouldnt get light output magnesium chloride emits only in the IR spectrun

 

The magnesium has to burn first before you can get magnesium chloride! That is where the light will come from.

[Mumbles]

I have no idea if it attacks dichromated aluminum. In theory it shouldn't, but ammonium chloride is more corrosive than perchlorate.

 

If I were making these, I'd use a traditional dark flash for small salutes. For larger inserts in shells, I'd use normal flash with an obscuring agent like sawdust or asphaltum.

[dagabu]

If I were making these, I'd use a traditional dark flash for small salutes. For larger inserts in shells, I'd use normal flash with an obscuring agent like sawdust or asphaltum.

 

Hot-Diggidy-Dog!

 

Mum, you say asphaltum will keep the light down? Can you recommend a mix?

[Ralph]

The magnesium has to burn first before you can get magnesium chloride! That is where the light will come from.

 

even at very low temperatures ammonium chloride will decompose to ammonia and HCl, now if your trying to tell me that finely divided magnesium will not react with HCl till it has been burnt im interested in why you think this if not than shut it (and I know that it works alttle better than just in theory as I have seen first hand AP strobes with their almost dark phase)

[frosty90]

even at very low temperatures ammonium chloride will decompose to ammonia and HCl, now if your trying to tell me that finely divided magnesium will not react with HCl till it has been burnt im interested in why you think this if not than shut it (and I know that it works alttle better than just in theory as I have seen first hand AP strobes with their almost dark phase)

 

So are you trying to say the idea is that none of the magnesium will ignite? If so why even have it there? f you were trying to make an IR flare, it would make sense though; I doubt reaction between magnesium and HCl alone would produce a loud report. Id have to see it before i believe it.

 

if not than shut it

 

I doubt that will be happening any time soon, on a forum where the concept is to discuss ideas and thoughts...

Edited January 15, 2011 by frosty90

[Ralph]

Yes all the energy produced by a reaction powerful enough to give a report must be dissipated somehow and much of this is usually as light it is almost impossible not to get light coming off it and I have a strong suspicion that traditional dark report would emmit strongly in either the IR or UV spectrum's

 

a properly chlorinated magnesium report composition with sufficiently fine magnesium (so as to have no unreacted particles present when the casing ruptures) would be dark despite you frustratingly saying 3 times over that it would not