Double break to bottom shot

[davis050594]

Hey guys. I am wanting to make a few break to report shells this spring. On top of that I would like to make one or two 2 break to report shells. I just plugged the bottom of the bottom shot canisters yesterday with 3 priority mail box disks and about 1/4 inch of glue between each disk. I then filled put another 1/4-1/2 inch on top of that and put a final disk on top. Today I plan to go make one of the bottom shots and paste it. These will be pasted very heavily as the tubes are quite small.

So anyways, I was wondering if you guys could give me some guidance in making the shells. I would like to do Maltese style rings if possible. Yes I know this means lots of spiking, but these are only 3" shells. The stars I will be working with are going to be 1/2 pumped ruby red, emerald green, and cuo blue. I believe I will use fencepost prime if that makes any difference. I plan to line the stars using the brick and mortar type method with nc+meal prime. Im thinking for the inner rings i would use small cut stars. I am not using tailed stars as I personally feel that detracts from the ring effect. I will be breaking with either bp+flash on hulls or kp+flash on hulls. The flash is just last layer. I mix the flash and then diaper the hulls with it.

 

 

Is it possible to use 1/4" time fuse or do I have to use a spollette?

[dagabu]

3" color to report shells using 1/2" stars? It doesn't sound like you have enough space inside the canister for that and the stars would be really sparse. I would test a mine of those stars, 2" max to see what the burn time would be for them and see how sparse they would be.

 

Also, with reports that small and reactive ingredients, you will not have to spike the shell heavily, a good paste wrap should get you the confinement you are looking for.

 

A far as spolette vs time fuse goes, there are camps on both sides. With crossmatched time fuse, I see no issues but spolettes have a long reputation that cant be argued with either.

 

I suggest that you read the Fulcanelli papers on building Italian shells and go from there.

[NightHawkInLight]

You can get away with time fuse, but you have to insert and glue it into a longer tube filled with blackmatch to make a passfire. With how quick the timing between breaks needs to be the time fuse will be too short to get through the discs of two shells on its own.

 

When building the shells you have two options: The one I have almost always used in the past, which is to build each break separately then spike them together at the end; Or the method I am starting to lean towards, build each shell by rolling overhanging kraft over the one below it, and treating the top of all previous shells as the bottom disc of the next to be made. The latter method is nice in that the shells are built together firmly, so there is no need to stuff newspaper between breaks to fill gaps that are created by two shells that are not a perfect fit. I have yet to see a shell built this way fail by means of the breaks separating when exiting the gun, something the traditional method is sometimes prone to.

Edited January 11, 2011 by NightHawkInLight

[dagabu]

NHIL, that sounds like a easy way to solve the milti break problem I am having with 2 and 3 break shells not being rigid enough.

[Mumbles]

These are the kind of topics that I like to see.

 

I have a trick for using time fuse actually. I have a bunch of those 1/4" ID red tubes. I glue the tubes into the disks, and glue the fuse into the tube. I prepare the inside of the tube where it will meet the shell much like a spolette. I fill the tube with blackmatch and nose it or run quickmatch farther into the shell if needed. This being said, spolettes are actually simpler than this operation. I only use it in a few situation such as sun and planet shells, or timed inserts where the following break has to go off on rhythm. I don't have suitable microspolette tubes to fit into these size of inserts, otherwise I would be using all spolettes. This also works for extremely short time fuse timings. I've gone as low as 3/8" delay. Because the fuse is extended outside of the shell a bit, there is no string and paper build up that would otherwise prevent time fuse delays of probably less than 1/2 to 3/4".

 

I've only used the method where each proceeding break is rolled over the top of the previous break for the entire shell a few times. Typically I do this for bottom shots and the preceding break, but not any other time, or for shells only containing a color/effect break and bottom shot. As it is, my shells get wide enough I occasionally have trouble fitting them into the guns. The more traditional italian style is to roll the can separately, and place it over the top of the spolette already on the shell. Once it is filled and closed, it is spiked vertically onto the other breaks. Keep going until you get all the breaks you want, and only then do you spike horizontally over the entire shell, with closely laid string at the joints. There is another method called the fencepost method that is designed for much longer shells. I've been using the method where each individual shell is spiked and pasted before being spiked together and pasted again. As Nighthawkinlight mentioned, all of these methods have their advantages and disadvantages. The fencepost method, which I can describe if desired, is definitely the most robust, but also takes the most time. It is thus typically reserved for large and long exhibition shells. I probably wouldn't use it on any shell under 4 breaks, and possibly not until 5.

 

I think you're going to have some trouble with the ring and pistil of smaller stars. You'll be able to fit around 10-11 comets per ring depending on how thick the prime is. They will leave you approximately a 1 3/8" gap in the center. I'm not sure about you, but I always needed a 1" canulla to make BP or KP on hulls work for a break. With granular BP you can probably use a 5/8 to 3/4" cannulla. Even then it's not really a lot of room. If your stars are even 1/4" after priming, you'll be able to fit at most probably 2-3 layers of stars. Really you don't know how it will look until you see it, but I think it may look a bit sparse. Then again it might look like you have two rings of color too. If you want to make a pistil of color, a better method might be to just mix the stars and burst together.

[davis050594]

Saw Mumbles post right after this. Lots of good info. I was thinking about using granulated bp covered in flash as another option for break. I also was thinking about just mixing pistil stars in with that. If I can find a 4" gun to use I'll try and make at least one of that size. I'm sure someone can bring an extra one to a shoot.

 

That is the method I have seen used in single break to report shells.

I just went outside and made a bottom shot and some more star tooling. The bottom shot I made had 120g of flash. I put a disk with a piece of kraft below it on the time fuse and inserted the tf into the flash, being careful not to compress the flash too much. But because the disks were hand cut it didnt fit perfectly. I had one side go down more and then a little powder leak out. I fixed it as well as possible and put some glue near the center of the disk. I then put another disk on top which closed it off from the flash. Here I put about 1/4-3/8" of hot glue. I then put one more disk on. After that I dry pasted it with 3 grocery bags (didn't have any kraft left). It was pretty tight, but not as solid as wet pasting. I went ahead and put a good tight layer of strapping tape in a spiking fashion to tighten it up some. This did work. I will do a 2 layer wet paste later to protect the tape from flame. The bottom shot as of now seems to be the right size. I was planning to use the method nhil mentioned. That's what I did for my first two bottom shot shells. One didn't work and the other I haven't shot. I think the one that didn't work just didnt have enough protection from the first break. The first break was supposed to be 5 reports. I dont know if the reports all went at once and caused the salute or if the bottom shot caused the salute, but either way it was a salute not timed reports.

Oh and the time fuse was cross matched. I made a hole in the fuse and stuck a piece of bm through it. I put some nc+bp slurry on it to lock it into place. This bshot will have to be used with a single break shell, maybe a timed reports shell. The time fuse is nearly 5 seconds because of how much I plugged it.

 

I haven't ordered the chems for the stars yet. We are still working out the issues with insurance etc. As of now the plan is for me to build stars at home and assemble shells and reports at another location. I hope to get the chems ordered in the next 2 weeks. The reason I said 1/2" is because that's what I used for my nye shells and the ones that didn't blow blind looked fine. My favorite shell was d1 and it was 1/2" pumped. These shells were rather tall though. When making more ring type shells you cant get as many stars in.

 

That's my next question. Ring shells. Could you tell me if what I have gathered is correct. I know that since these are 3" I will get no where near what the maltese shells get. However if I can get an outer and inner ring I will be very happy.

So from pictures and videos I believe this is how the construction goes. It's hard to put this in words but...

You line the outer layer of stars all the way around the shell and with a 3" shell I would assume 3-4 layers tall. Paint nc+bp slurry on the wall of stars. After that you do another layer about 2 layers tall of outer stars and paint that with slurry. Then you align smaller inner stars along the wall of the outer stars. Paint that with slurry. Now there is an inside out cone type shape of stars. So on the bottom there is a little circle of room for burst and up top you have almost just one layer of stars. Is this correct?

I would be using pretty heavily boosted burst with these shells. This means a really good prime which is why I have chosen fence post.

 

Edited January 11, 2011 by davis050594

[Mumbles]

I'm not sure why you think you need so much hot glue. With hard case bottom shots I use 2 disks on top, and 3-4 on the bottom, just stacked until it feels solid. I've been advised to consider using a "standup tube" inside the bottom shot of larger salutes to help further strengthen it. This is just a smaller diameter tube cut the same length as the main tube used as a center support. Holes can be drilled into it to ensure that fire propagates.

 

You are definitely confused by the maltese ring shells. You have the overall idea right, but the walls of stars/comets are stacked all the way to the top. The inverted cone you describe is just for pictures to show all the layers. Also keep in mind that if you paint the prime on, the stars have a tendency to partly stick together and not give perfect symmetry. This really only matters when looking at pictures, but it bothers some perfectionists.

[davis050594]

Alright well I have some decisions to make with the stars. I don't know of a way to pump stars smaller than 1/2 without buying a pump. I prefer to just make my own pump to save money. If I could get like a 3/8" pipe that would be perfect. Also, how do you suggest I prime them without misforming them too much? They will need a good prime if I'm breaking them so hard.

 

I didn't use all too much glue. With it being the bottom break I want to make sure it doesn't go in the gun. That brings up another question, if I'm shooting 2-3 break 3" shells, do I need to bury the mortars? Will sand in a 5 gal bucket work?'

[pyrokid]

Alright well I have some decisions to make with the stars. I don't know of a way to pump stars smaller than 1/2 without buying a pump. I prefer to just make my own pump to save money. If I could get like a 3/8" pipe that would be perfect. Also, how do you suggest I prime them without misforming them too much? They will need a good prime if I'm breaking them so hard.

 

I didn't use all too much glue. With it being the bottom break I want to make sure it doesn't go in the gun. That brings up another question, if I'm shooting 2-3 break 3" shells, do I need to bury the mortars? Will sand in a 5 gal bucket work?'

 

 

Hey davis

 

 

You should be able to find 3/8 inch pvc at your local hardware store. Or maybe lowe's or the home depot. Usually they are a little off on the measurement, but they work just fine. If the dowel you use is a little too small, you can wrap a little electrical tape around the bottom to make a seal.

[NightHawkInLight]

Cut stars are preferred by many canister shell builders, and require no tooling for any size.

[Mumbles]

If you're just making colored breaks then cut stars are fine. However to do the maltese style ring shells, you need cylindrical stars. They, and other cylindrical inserts such as pupadelles, also help to reinforce and strengthen these multibreak shells to ensure that it survives the lift out of the gun.

 

I've found suitable steel and brass pipe at larger hardware stores if you want to go that route. Some have mentioned that slurry priming cylindrical stars helps to retain their shape. With such small stars though even a little rounding will have a large impact. You can always prime them in situ, with the slurry once they are loaded. If you don't like how they break figure it out from there.

[davis050594]

Was situ a typo or a term that I don't know yet?

I plan to make the multibreak to bshot shells all color, but I would like to make 1 or 2 timed report to bottom shot shells as well. These would be 1 break and bottom shot.

Maybe I'll just kind of go with what works for the first batches and try to get a good break on my single break cans. I can work from there to make a hybrid in the future. I think all my single break cans will be tailed stars such as d1 and tt+ti.

[dagabu]

No, it means "in place", it means after you load the shells you can prime them.

[davis050594]

Oh like situated. Thought that may have been what you meant

[dagabu]

Latin roots I believe.

[davis050594]

What could i use as a time fuse punch? My brass awl just ain't quite cutting... Err punching it.

[NightHawkInLight]

What could i use as a time fuse punch? My brass awl just ain't quite cutting... Err punching it.

Good luck figuring that one out. Without an actual fuse punch you're stuck splitting the end with a razor blade, inserting a piece of match, then tying shut.

[dagabu]

A little imagination if you could

 

Use a leather punch, the kind with the rotating head, use the smallest punch. Finish the hole with an awl. No, its not the best way but it does work. Davis, PM me, I will shoot you my email addy, I can show you an easy jig to punch your time fuse.

[pogue1000]

You can make a simple jig out of some wood and a small sharp nail. I tend to cut with a knife alot and tying it back like Nighthawk pointed out.

[NightHawkInLight]

I'll admit, I only use time fuse occasionally. Most of what I know about it I've learned from others. I thought for whatever reason that you don't want to simply poke a hole in it, you want to remove a plug out of the core as you punch through. I believe it was supposed to stop the tar in the wall from coating the hole made. Doesn't make much sense to me now thinking about it.

[dagabu]

If you listen to all of the failures there are with passfires, you will soon see that attention to detail and quality of ingredients are the keys to success. I have heard the same stories about spolettes that I do about time fuse, failure to pass fire, failure to take fire.

 

If a time fuse it properly punched, there will be plenty of powder exposed to the cross match. Which brings up a darn good point. For years, there have been reports of time fuse failing to pass fire or take fire. There are pyros that have done exhaustive testing and when they reported their findings, the problem turned out to be the cross match much more often then the time fuse itself.

 

Thermolite fuse for example is so hot that one autopsy I saw showed that the tar (it looked like the plastic sheathing to me though) was melted and covered the powder! It also takes a lot of heat to to side light it so a good BP based cross match is almost essential for passing fire back and forth.

[NightHawkInLight]

On the same note, about half of the times that I've used time fuse I have simply roughed up the end of the powder core and covered it with a good BP slurry, no failures. I understand that is avoided my most people because it introduces moisture to the core, but it's worked for me so far.

[davis050594]

Would a color to farfalle to bottom shot (3 breaks) shell be too heavy for the 3" size? I'm afraid farfalle inserts would weigh too much.

 

Also, pyrokid mentioned using softer lift in larger amounts for these shells. What do you guys recommended? My charcoal as of now for bp is from my neighbors pine tree. It burns pretty dang good in my opinion. I can get a video of it on some hulls and granulated if you would like. Anywho, what formula would you guys recommended I use? Lower sulfur higher charcoal?

 

That brings up one more question, what is the technical name for sulfur's job in compositions? I want to say catalyst as it technically adds to the reaction, but I get the feeling that on a deeper level it doesn't do that.

 

I will try the leather punch.

 

thanks for putting up with this getting a little side tracked. I have a lot of questions lol

Thanks,

Davis

Edited January 12, 2011 by davis050594

[NightHawkInLight]

A 3 break will not be too heavy. Just be sure that whatever method you use the shells end up being compacted together so well by the spiking that a vice couldn't bring them closer. You don't need to make a special batch of BP. So long as it's not balsa fast, which really is too fast for lifting shells of any sort, you should be fine. Nothing to worry about until you make something much larger and heavier than a 3"x3 break. Sulfur, as far as it's place in BP is concerned, lowers the energy required for it to ignite. Less energy required translates into faster burning BP because the comp takes less time to reach a temperature at which it will react.

[Mumbles]

I would call sulfur an accelerant maybe. It both lowers ignition temperature as NHL mentioned, as well as increasing gas output.

 

A shell can never really be too heavy. You could fill it with lead, and it can still be shot. Now, it can be too heavy for a mortar. I've shot 3 break 3" shells on many occasions from fiberglass. I'd go with full on burying over a bucket of clay/sand though. A 55 gallon barrel will probably suffice. I've never noticed farfalle shells, or other insert shells to be overly heavy. I'd imagine they're no worse than a comet shell. Now, I would use a 2FA granulation in a shell like this as opposed to something like 4FA some people lift 3" single breaks with.

 

Good luck.